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Help: Gap between AC and defenses seems too large.
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<blockquote data-quote="mneme" data-source="post: 5570417" data-attributes="member: 59248"><p>Note, psi -- this is 4e. -everyone- is supposed to be able to get decent AC.</p><p></p><p>Things like the Barbarian (who has pretty low AC overall unless the player drops the character's abilities, obv unless Whirling) and the con builds of the Shaman are exceptions; everyone should have reasonable AC, when well built. 16-20 at first level, going up in more or less lockstep until defenders and melee strikers start investing more feats in AC.</p><p></p><p>That's the other thing--the reason Barbarians and Avengers can have good AC and HP (even thoguh most barbarians have terrible AC) is because they're melee classes. Rogues have good AC, but mediocre HP -- but can operate at range--and do much better damage than any striker except for optimized Rangers. Melee rangers are actually broken; they can't get reasonable AC except by going Str/Dex rather than (as intended) Str/Wis. Ranged rangers are about where they should be aside from too much damage: great AC, mediocre HP, operating at range.</p><p></p><p>Basically, all the characters operating in melee should be either doing full striker level damage (eg, not Barbarian or Avenger damage) or be durable as hell. The defender kicker is being able to control enemies and prevent them from getting at squishies or the weak; the melee striker kicker is being able to do extra damage.</p><p></p><p>Also, re rogues vs barbs -- rogues tend to be 20 mainstat builds, but barbs may have to spread things out (particularly to have a decent AC if they want one). Rogue level 1 damage is 1d4+2d6, and if they're in melee, they more or less always hit (combat advatnage, and piercing strike to target Reflex instead of AC). Or they're doing 1d4+2d6+Dex+Cha, and adding an extra 3 points of damage out with every hit; assuming 5/3, and that 's 17.5 damage at first level without feats, striking AC at +11 [with combat advantage. Compare to a barb with decent AC howling strike -- 1d10+1d6+Str[+4], so 14, hitting AC at +9 [I gave them combat advantage too, though by playstyle they'll have it less often but get +1 for charging pretty often]. The rogue's hitting more often for more damage.</p><p></p><p>Now, the barbarian can do charge optimization, but that's GM/item dependent. And the barb has great spike damage -- but unless most of the monsters are down once the spikes stop falling [and it's not like a rogue has -bad- spike damage; rogues also get status effects with their damage] then they're down to at wil DPR, where the rogue is queen.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="mneme, post: 5570417, member: 59248"] Note, psi -- this is 4e. -everyone- is supposed to be able to get decent AC. Things like the Barbarian (who has pretty low AC overall unless the player drops the character's abilities, obv unless Whirling) and the con builds of the Shaman are exceptions; everyone should have reasonable AC, when well built. 16-20 at first level, going up in more or less lockstep until defenders and melee strikers start investing more feats in AC. That's the other thing--the reason Barbarians and Avengers can have good AC and HP (even thoguh most barbarians have terrible AC) is because they're melee classes. Rogues have good AC, but mediocre HP -- but can operate at range--and do much better damage than any striker except for optimized Rangers. Melee rangers are actually broken; they can't get reasonable AC except by going Str/Dex rather than (as intended) Str/Wis. Ranged rangers are about where they should be aside from too much damage: great AC, mediocre HP, operating at range. Basically, all the characters operating in melee should be either doing full striker level damage (eg, not Barbarian or Avenger damage) or be durable as hell. The defender kicker is being able to control enemies and prevent them from getting at squishies or the weak; the melee striker kicker is being able to do extra damage. Also, re rogues vs barbs -- rogues tend to be 20 mainstat builds, but barbs may have to spread things out (particularly to have a decent AC if they want one). Rogue level 1 damage is 1d4+2d6, and if they're in melee, they more or less always hit (combat advatnage, and piercing strike to target Reflex instead of AC). Or they're doing 1d4+2d6+Dex+Cha, and adding an extra 3 points of damage out with every hit; assuming 5/3, and that 's 17.5 damage at first level without feats, striking AC at +11 [with combat advantage. Compare to a barb with decent AC howling strike -- 1d10+1d6+Str[+4], so 14, hitting AC at +9 [I gave them combat advantage too, though by playstyle they'll have it less often but get +1 for charging pretty often]. The rogue's hitting more often for more damage. Now, the barbarian can do charge optimization, but that's GM/item dependent. And the barb has great spike damage -- but unless most of the monsters are down once the spikes stop falling [and it's not like a rogue has -bad- spike damage; rogues also get status effects with their damage] then they're down to at wil DPR, where the rogue is queen. [/QUOTE]
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Help: Gap between AC and defenses seems too large.
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