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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rechan" data-source="post: 5795015" data-attributes="member: 54846">Are you certain that your players aren't having fun? Most players really enjoy tearing monsters apart. They may not be fearing for their characters lives, but are they bored? Boredom is the enemy here. Fun is the goal here. If they're not bored, and they're having fun, than the "challenge" doesn't really matter. Last time I played it was as a leader, and "threat/challenge" wasn't what thrilled me. I was satisfied by the most strategic use of my powers to pull my party's fat out of the fire. They'd have died twenty times over had I not used the perfect power at the right moment, had I not juggled my actions just so. I loved seeing enemies with interesting/new abilities and hated seeing boring monsters or the same types of enemies over and over (in this case, goblins). Also, getting the occasional kill shot made me feel like a king. The only things that scared me were carrion crawlers and lots of spread out enemies with ranged attacks (since they could hit anyone and shave off damage).Also your issue may very well be your outlook on "what is challenging". I really think you would benefit from <a href="http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2011/08/why-making-hard-encounters-is-hard/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+omnivangelist%2FFvNp+%28At+Will%29&utm_content=Google+Reader" target="_blank">reading this</a>.4e PCs are very durable. They are hard to kill, period. I've only managed to kill 1 (and that was a high damage power that hit a guy at single digit hp). I played in a game for 10 levels and only saw 1 death (again, Pc was at low HP and got hit by serious damage). Otherwise, they bounce up very quickly from bleeding on the floor. They are also very potent. Controllers are supposed to shove around and knock down enemies. Defenders are supposed to lock down your enemies. That's what they're designed to do. Monsters usually get waxed before getting to whip out their cool stuff.In my experience, 4e fights go one of three ways: 1) Players blow through the encounter, but it just takes time. 2) It's tough, and at the middle there's some tension/it looks hard, but then there's a moment of "aha", it swings hard into the player's favor, and then it becomes just mopping up the enemies.3) It's a real squeaker, where everyone almost died. #3 is very rare and hard to reproduce. Usually it's a perfect storm of hot dice on the DM's part, a weird synergy of powers/rules, some bad decisions or cold ice on the PCs' part, and tough opposition.So what should you do?Remember that your monsters don't have to do incredible damage, kill PCs, or even be very effective to challenge/threaten the players. Why? Because what's important is the illusion of threat. Your goal is to make them feel that way. For instance, if a non-defender PC gets surrounded, he is going to feel threatened/in danger, and the pressure is on for the group to save his bacon. If a PC is getting dragged away, same deal. If something scary pops out in the middle of a fight, right in a PC's face, same deal. If a second wave of monsters arrive in the middle of a fight, same deal. Stop threatening the PCs stats, start threatening their expectations.Accept that your players are going to shove your guys around, lock them down, focus fire, beat the crap out of them. Once you accept that, start thinking about how to get beyond it. For instance, attack the squishies at all costs. The defender gets off a potshot of a few damage - so? The wizard still gets shot in the face. Remember, the defender can only use his defensive ability once per round (except Essentials defenders) so any attacks after the first is free. Focus fire - several monsters attack one PC. Send a few monsters to tie the defender up while the rest go gunning for someone else (a soldier who charges the fighter is a good way to start). Waves. Have half or 2/3rds of your monsters in the room at the start of the combat, and have the rest show up 2-3 rounds later. Your PCs have already used some of their encounter powers, they're confident, and suddenly BOOM, monsters with fresh abilities and full HP arrive. This goes double for Lurkers - lurkers can remain hidden until they pop out. So, have them hang back a few rounds, then pop out and eat the controller's face. Suddenly the focus of the battle is to get that guy off the wizard. Next, analyze your players' powers and choose monsters/tactics accordingly. Do they have lots of dazes/stuns? Well you're boned. Dazing/stunning is nasty. There are a few monsters who can shrug off dazes/stuns. Ok hold on there. Lair Assault is for powergamers. Seriously. It is designed for people who have mastery of the system - you're supposed to play it multiple times, learning to build your character for the fight. Thus Lair Assault is supposed to draw the most powerful players who can cancel all the threats. It's a competitive module and you really shouldn't use it as any sort of benchmark to access your skill.</blockquote>

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