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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 3043542" data-attributes="member: 704">This is a reasonably valid point.  In order for the Hobgoblins to be a threat, you need to be able to have the hobgoblins damage the players.  If the players all have high enough AC values, then you really are just fishing for 20's.But if you can get it to a point where a standard issue hobgoblin can score a hit on an 18 or better, relying on no bonuses other than his Bab, then you can get somewhere with it.  Getting to that point is not going to be easy, since most players react violently to having their gear tampered with, destroyed, or stolen.But you also need to remember, Delta, that in that Tuckers example, that DM did more than just throw swarms of Kobolds at his players.  Those kobolds were killing pack animals and henchmen, pushing burning debris at the players, and getting use of tunnels that were too small for the players to move around.  When your putting low level humanoids against your players, you must do everything you can that can inflict damage without making melee attacks.If you just uses masses of Kobolds against 12th level fighters, your screwed.  They can use just enough power attack to guarantee 1 hit kills with cleave and they will be mowing down the Hobgoblins at a scary rate.  If someone has a spiked chain, they can wipe out more than a dozen with great cleave.But if you can force the players into a bad position, things can turn very fast.  The presence of one warrior who can score Disarms against the players will dramatically improve the hobgoblins chances.  And if you can find a way to have Hobgoblins hit on 17 or 18 with missile weapons, you can easily just keep some distances and pincushion the players.In short, I think it can be done, but you do have to create situations where the Hobgoblins can do the job.  That means finding enough to hit bonuses to overcome a high AC, or finding a way to make touch attacks do the job.That, or you have to go with my original suggestion of a straight up fight against 12 000 Hobgoblins and force it to the last man standing.END COMMUNICATION</blockquote>

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