Help me convince my DM that monks aren't broken

[Borthos]

One of the players in my game wants to make a monk/cleric multiclass and eventually go sacred fist if the DM lets us pull PrC from out of core.

Anyway, my DM seems to think that monks are broken beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm on the player's side as I know monks aren't broken, but the DM seems to think he'll hit harder/more or be more op than the druid in the party. I've tried explaining the Barbarian will hit harder and more often and the Druid will be far more versatile than this character (loss of the caster levels hurts in the long run), but he doesn't seem to believe us, saying things like "I've got stunning fist guard this game, so don't be abusing it!" (and he's not even letting the poor guy get ability focus[SF]) and saying monks are the best class at low levels.

How can I convince the DM that monks really aren't God's gift to gaming?

 

[Dandu]

Whatever you do, do not link him to Brilliant Gameologists. His head will explode.

 

[Wyvernhand]

Type the following into google.

site:giantitp.com monk
site:brilliantgamologists.com monk

Read some of the threads there. Print one or two of them out. Show them to your DM.

Done!

 

[Sekhmet]

One of the players in my game wants to make a monk/cleric multiclass and eventually go sacred fist if the DM lets us pull PrC from out of core.

Anyway, my DM seems to think that monks are broken beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm on the player's side as I know monks aren't broken, but the DM seems to think he'll hit harder/more or be more op than the druid in the party. I've tried explaining the Barbarian will hit harder and more often and the Druid will be far more versatile than this character (loss of the caster levels hurts in the long run), but he doesn't seem to believe us, saying things like "I've got stunning fist guard this game, so don't be abusing it!" (and he's not even letting the poor guy get ability focus[SF]) and saying monks are the best class at low levels.

How can I convince the DM that monks really aren't God's gift to gaming?

...erm.
Monks: d8, average BAB, few skill points, low damage, lots of hits, but overall not an amazing martial class.

Consider that Monks cannot enchant their fists beyond +5. No elemental damage, no extra specials.
This makes weapon wielding Monks superior once enchantments become available, and then they're not that impressive compared to other weapon using classes (Barbs, Fighters, etc).
Simply: 1d20 (average damage 10) is weaker than 1d6+3d6 elemental properties (average damage 12), and absolutely weaker than some special properties able to attached (read: Magic Item Compendium).
They also lack the ability to deal special damage properties early on (Cold Iron, Adamantine, Ghost Touch, etc).

Prior to enchantments, a monk's AC is lower than a typical martial class - no armor, ability scores having to be spread out between Wis, Dex, and Str, and few combat oriented class features.

We'll consider an ANTI MAGIC FIELD for a moment.
A Druid vs. a Monk at level 20.

Druid has stats 8, 16, 10, 8 INT, 20 WIS, 8 CHA and a Dire Tiger (120 HP, 17 AC, Full Attack: 2 Claws +20 (2d4+8) and Bite +14 (2d6 +4), Grapple of +24.

The Monk has +5 AC from level 20, +6 from Wis and Dex, thats a 21 AC.

The Dire Tiger charges (with Pounce), hits the Monk on a roll of 1 (+22 for Charging), deals 2 claw attacks (with a roll of 1), a bite (on a roll of 7), a rake (on a 3) with 2d8+4 with a free grapple (+24, the monk would need a +13 str modifier (15+str) to compare to the Tiger's grapple check).

The Dire Tiger proceeds to rake and eat the hell out of the Monk until the Monk is dead.


And the Druid has done nothing but whisper lovingly into the Tiger's ear.

Outside of an AntiMagic Field, the Druid is at a clear advantage - being able to Wild Shape into any number of impressive creatures or elementals, having access to level 9 spells that negate or otherwise hinder the Monk, among other silly little Druid tricks (like turning into a bird, flying away, and letting the Dire Tiger eat you.)

 

[Dandu]

The only thing the monk has going for it are good saves, flurry, and some bonus feats. I'd take a Thief for my secondary combat needs any day.

 

[kitcik]

Surprisingly, I get the same reaction from my DM. It is more common than most posters here believe.

I am playing a monk and going to Monk 12 (the last possible bailing point before absolute suckage) before switching. Right now I am monstrous humanoid 1 (thri kreen) / monk 8 (nonpsionic, bought off the LA).

I think monk levels 9 & 10 are particularly bad and I've been trying to get some alternative class features in to no avail. My DM says those crappy levels are to let other classes, like druid and wizard, catch up in power to the monk.

Frustrating.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The only real solution here is to not play a monk. I'm sorry, I know the player probably really wants to do it. But some things just aren't worth the aggravation, especially for a GAME. Anyone with a basic understanding of the rules and how the game works knows that monk is the weakest class in the game (or second weakest if CW Samurai is in the mix). To not only endure that burden but to ALSO have to constantly defend your PC from the DM claiming it's overpowered and wanting to nerf it "for balance" (don't think getting it approved will be the end; anytime the monk player manages to do anything remotely awesome, the DM will begin to wonder if a nerf is needed, he'll actually be "on lookout" for such things) ...it's not worth it.

Play a class that's actually powerful and save the monk idea for a competent DM.On that note, if he really thinks monks are overpowered, I'm not sure it's a good idea to play in his game at all. I really wouldn't trust someone with such a lousy sense of game balance to be throwing encounters at the party.*

*This entire paragraph is if the DM is experienced. If he's just new, then still don't be a monk, but play and let him learn how things work. If he is experienced, though, that means he's a) set in his ways and b) willfully blind to reality, possibly due to a hatred of anything Asian in his D&D (just a guess). If so...avoid that game.

 

[marcielle]

Speaking of Druids, I'm surprised noone has suggested the old 'play an OP class just to show him' thing. I'd just like to say I'm very proud of all of you.

If your DM let's non-core in just ask him to play a Psychic Warrior. They are actually better unarmed fighter than the monks(not that thats a big feat).

Math might help. Especially since he actually thinks Stunning fist by itself is good. You mentioned level 8?
Lets pull out a CR 8 from the SRD
Aforementioned Dire Tiger should suffice
It has a Fort save of 13
Let's say you have a WIS of 16(That's being generous).
At level 8 your Stunning FIst save DC is 17. The Tiger has a 80% chance to avoid it, assuming IT HITS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
It has AC 17 so you have a 50/50 chance of hitting it with your medium BAB assuming you have found a way to enchant your fists.
And therefore, stunning fist is a move that has a 10% chance of affecting a CR appropriate encounter FOR 1 ROUND.

TLDR stunning fist SOUNDS nice but anyone with enough math skills to play the game, and CERTAINLY enough to DM properly, can see that unaugmented, it sucks. Also, Fort saves on MONSTERS seem to scale almost quadratically. If your DM still cannot see that stunning fist is FAR from powerful, or even moderately useful, he is officially math impaired.
He MIGHT use the 'but it will take down wizards' defence, but unless the wizard is RETARDED, the monk, or in fact most non-gish melees, WILL NEVER EVEN REACH the wizard. Not alive anyway.

 

[Borthos]

Speaking of Druids, I'm surprised noone has suggested the old 'play an OP class just to show him' thing. I'd just like to say I'm very proud of all of you.

If your DM let's non-core in just ask him to play a Psychic Warrior. They are actually better unarmed fighter than the monks(not that thats a big feat).

Math might help. Especially since he actually thinks Stunning fist by itself is good. You mentioned level 8?
Lets pull out a CR 8 from the SRD
Aforementioned Dire Tiger should suffice
It has a Fort save of 13
Let's say you have a WIS of 16(That's being generous).
At level 8 your Stunning FIst save DC is 17. The Tiger has a 80% chance to avoid it, assuming IT HITS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
It has AC 17 so you have a 50/50 chance of hitting it with your medium BAB assuming you have found a way to enchant your fists.
And therefore, stunning fist is a move that has a 10% chance of affecting a CR appropriate encounter FOR 1 ROUND.

TLDR stunning fist SOUNDS nice but anyone with enough math skills to play the game, and CERTAINLY enough to DM properly, can see that unaugmented, it sucks. Also, Fort saves on MONSTERS seem to scale almost quadratically. If your DM still cannot see that stunning fist is FAR from powerful, or even moderately useful, he is officially math impaired.
He MIGHT use the 'but it will take down wizards' defence, but unless the wizard is RETARDED, the monk, or in fact most non-gish melees, WILL NEVER EVEN REACH the wizard. Not alive anyway.

Did I say level 8? oh well. His plan is monk 2/cleric X/Sacred Fist 10/Cleric X, if the dm lets him take the sacred fist. Otherwise, straight cleric. He's only going monk because he likes the image of an unarmed cleric and he's the 5th wheel in the party, so he can do what he wants with the character. We're level 1 right now, so the dc for his SF is 15 because of a crazy pt buy we got.

Thank you guys for all the examples though, I'll use them in trying to convince him. He is an experienced DM but he's a very house rules heavy DM, and he doesn't see that his house rules destroy the game balance in all forms. So this game we're sticking to RAW as close as possible, and he's still stuck on the "monks are broken" line.

EDIT: worst part is, DM doesn't see the druid as broken, even though in the past the player has come up with the most op combinations because of his stupid house rules. Yet he warned the monk guy (new guy) that he better not break the game. When was the last time Sacred Fist broke your game?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I doubt there is anyone at ENWorld who loves Monks more than I (check my sig), and even I won't assert the class is broken. Or even on a par with most other classes.

You don't play a Monk to break the game, you play a monk because you want to play a Monk.

Some other options:

If you have access to Oriental Adventures- and the Dragon #318 3.5Ed update- you might consider Monk/Shaman or Shaman/Cleric instead of Monk/Cleric. The Shaman is a full caster w/2-3 Domains that is also an unarmed combatant...and the updated Shaman's unarmed strikes both scale with level AND stack with Monk unarmed strikes.

Furthermore, look at the OA PrCls: if you're after FoB, the Shou Disciple is a 5 level PrCl that makes a PC into an armored flurryer. The Shiba Protector adds your Wis mod to Att & Damage rolls.