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<blockquote data-quote="marcielle" data-source="post: 5647849" data-attributes="member: 6672328">Speaking of Druids, I'm surprised noone has suggested the old 'play an OP class just to show him' thing. I'd just like to say I'm very proud of all of you. If your DM let's non-core in just ask him to play a Psychic Warrior. They are actually better unarmed fighter than the monks(not that thats a big feat).Math might help. Especially since he actually thinks Stunning fist by itself is good. You mentioned level 8?Lets pull out a CR 8 from the SRDAforementioned Dire Tiger should sufficeIt has a Fort save of 13Let's say you have a WIS of 16(That's being generous).At level 8 your Stunning FIst save DC is 17. The Tiger has a 80% chance to avoid it, assuming IT HITS IN THE FIRST PLACE.It has AC 17 so you have a 50/50 chance of hitting it with your medium BAB assuming you have found a way to enchant your fists.And therefore, stunning fist is a move that has a 10% chance of affecting a CR appropriate encounter FOR 1 ROUND. TLDR stunning fist SOUNDS nice but anyone with enough math skills to play the game, and CERTAINLY enough to DM properly, can see that unaugmented, it sucks. Also, Fort saves on MONSTERS seem to scale almost quadratically. If your DM still cannot see that stunning fist is FAR from powerful, or even moderately useful, he is officially math impaired.He MIGHT use the 'but it will take down wizards' defence, but unless the wizard is RETARDED, the monk, or in fact most non-gish melees, WILL NEVER EVEN REACH the wizard. Not alive anyway.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="marcielle, post: 5647849, member: 6672328"] Speaking of Druids, I'm surprised noone has suggested the old 'play an OP class just to show him' thing. I'd just like to say I'm very proud of all of you. If your DM let's non-core in just ask him to play a Psychic Warrior. They are actually better unarmed fighter than the monks(not that thats a big feat). Math might help. Especially since he actually thinks Stunning fist by itself is good. You mentioned level 8? Lets pull out a CR 8 from the SRD Aforementioned Dire Tiger should suffice It has a Fort save of 13 Let's say you have a WIS of 16(That's being generous). At level 8 your Stunning FIst save DC is 17. The Tiger has a 80% chance to avoid it, assuming IT HITS IN THE FIRST PLACE. It has AC 17 so you have a 50/50 chance of hitting it with your medium BAB assuming you have found a way to enchant your fists. And therefore, stunning fist is a move that has a 10% chance of affecting a CR appropriate encounter FOR 1 ROUND. TLDR stunning fist SOUNDS nice but anyone with enough math skills to play the game, and CERTAINLY enough to DM properly, can see that unaugmented, it sucks. Also, Fort saves on MONSTERS seem to scale almost quadratically. If your DM still cannot see that stunning fist is FAR from powerful, or even moderately useful, he is officially math impaired. He MIGHT use the 'but it will take down wizards' defence, but unless the wizard is RETARDED, the monk, or in fact most non-gish melees, WILL NEVER EVEN REACH the wizard. Not alive anyway. [/QUOTE]

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