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Message: <blockquote data-quote="airwalkrr" data-source="post: 3065108" data-attributes="member: 12460">I don't find this particularly amazing. These are the only classes in the core rules that get heavy armor proficiency. Is it that surprising that these classes are the only ones that benefit from heavy armor proficiency?The real issue here is not whether the wizard would pursue a logical course of action. The question is whether or not the DM will allow new magic items. Remember that the guidelines in the back of the DMG are only that: guidelines. The item you suggest (a cloak that gives always active shield) is considerably more powerful than the guidelines suggest. It provides access to a spell that most characters can not have (personal range) and is in every way better than a ring of force shield (which costs 8,000 gp). It probably deserves to cost at least 10 times what the guidelines recommend, if not more. Compare it to a ring of force shield and scale appropriately, factoring in the benefit that you are immune to magic missile.I have already explained this above. However, I would like to point you to page 214 of the DMG wherein is listed the "Variant: New Magic Items" section. A variant is not part of the core rules, a variant is an optional rule that the DM may or may not allow at his option. In the first place, no player is allowed to tell a DM what he can and cannot allow. If the DM says a shield cloak is not allowable, it is not allowable. Pointing out that the DMG has guidelines for creating such an item will not win that argument. In the second place, the core rules do not presume that characters can create new items. The creation of new items is a variant, and in my campaign, it requires not only the cost of creating the item, but also a research cost, usually 10% of the cost of the item, to see if the item is even craftable.You made some unreasonable assumptions. I pointed out why I believed the assumptions were unreasonable, at least for this test case, and then proceeded. As I said, if the bracer wearer has a base Dex of 20 we are already skewing things by allowing very high ability scores and the discussion is really pointless. There have to be rules of engagement so to speak and I think using an elite array is a fair way of doing it.This excerpt is an exercise in munchinism. I am not talking about twinking out AC. If that is the goal then I would not bother with using a cleric in my example. I am talking about rational character builds. Most wizards would not give up a caster level and invest in a periapt of wisdom (forgoing an amulet of natural armor by the way which you seem to have forgotten) and monk's belt just to improve their AC. Honestly, I would rather have the +5 from the amulet of natural armor and not lose a caster level than get a +5 (+4 Wis using a starting Wisdom of 12 and +1 monk) which also adds to my touch AC.Your example assumed 18 as a base for Dexterity (+2 for elf). Godlike was hyperbole, indeed, but most characters do not start with two 18s, and if a wizard got only one, it would go into Intelligence. So a starting Dexterity of 20 is definitely a high powered campaign and if we have that kind of assumption, the same benefit of the doubt needs to be given to the heavy armor wearer.After 17th level it is not as much of a sacrifice. But until you reach 17th level, you will be missing out on those higher level spells all the time, something most spellcasters are loathe to do. If you do not know this then you apparently do not play spellcasters very often.Actually I would debate that. You are aware of the effects of 9th level spells right? The ability to kill everyone around you one more time per day with a high save DC is not exactly chump change compared to melee-oriented combat feats and a few bonuses to your saving throws. The character might get more use in general, but that does not mean these abilities are a more effective means to accomplishing the wizard's ends. Plus a wizard gets an extra 8th level spell at 20th level too.You are still assuming that the bracer wearer has a shield spell. Without it, his AC is substantially lower.I think you are confusing this argument with the general differences between clerics and wizards. AC does not make you dnagerous.I'll concede this point is debatable and open to interpretation, but I have not ever seen it used this way and it smacks of cheese.Giving you the benefit of the doubt on the monk's belt, the cleric is still superior by the core rules. Take the following refined example, in which I eschew the ghost touch enhancement and the house rule cloak that I have demonstrated is not guaranteed by the core rules (and would not be allowed by most DMs, at least not at such a cheap cost, because it duplicates a powerful spell that has a personal range).Clr20, base Dexterity 10+5 mithril full plate - 35,650 gp or 23,150 gp to craft+5 heavy steel shield - 25,170 gp or 12,670 gp to craft+5 amulet of natural armor - 50,000 gp or 25,000 gp to craft (if he has the Plant domain or we assume the party druid/ranger casts barkskin for him)+5 ring of protection - 50,000 gp or 25,000 gp to craft+6 gloves of dexterity - 36,000 gp or 18,000 gp to craft (we assume the party bard/druid/sorcerer/wizard casts cat's grace for him)Total AC: 43, touch 18 (incorporeal 18), flat-footed 40Total Cost: 196,820 gp or 103,820 gp to craftMnk1/Wiz19, base Dexterity 16, base Wisdom 12+8 bracers of armor - 64,000 gp or 32,000 gp to craft+5 amulet of natural armor - 50,000 gp or 25,000 gp to craft (we assume the party cleric/druid/ranger casts barkskin for him)+5 ring of protection - 50,000 gp or 25,000 gp to craft (we assume the party cleric casts shield of faith for him)+6 gloves of dexterity - 36,000 gp or 18,000 gp to craftmonk's belt - 13,000 gp or 6,500 gp to craftTotal AC: 36, touch 23 (incorporeal 31), flat-footed 30Total cost: 213,000 gp or 106,500 gp to craftNow one thing I am willing to give you is the +6 periapt of wisdom, but only if we multiply the cost by 2 because it has no space limitation. I feel this is much more reasonable than the shield cloak because there is already a precedent for a lesser item of this type in the incandescent sphere blue ioun stone. But that skyrockets the wizard's costs by 72,000 gp, 36,000 gp if he is crafting it. That is a respectable chunk of change for only a +3 enchancement to his AC. What we have here is an armorless wizard who has an advantage in touch AC but not AC in general or flat-footed AC. While a high touch AC is nice, it is far from being as useful as AC in general.But let us do a more equitable comparison: one between an armored cleric and a bracered cleric.Clr19/Mnk1, base Dexterity 10, base Wisdom 15+8 bracers of armor - 64,000 gp or 32,000 gp to craft (we assume the party wizard casts mage armor for him)+5 amulet of natural armor - 50,000 gp or 25,000 gp to craft (if he has the Plant domain or we assume the party druid/ranger casts barkskin for him)+5 ring of protection - 50,000 gp or 25,000 gp to craft+6 gloves of dexterity - 36,000 gp or 18,000 gp to craft (we assume the party bard/druid/wizard casts cat's grace for him)Total AC: 36, touch 23 (incorporeal 31), flat-footed 33Total Cost: 200,000 gp or 100,000 gp to craftSo with roughly the same expenditure of wealth, we have a bracered cleric who is inferior to the armored cleric in every manner except for touch/incorporeal touch AC. The bracered cleric can use a shield, but if he does that, he might as well use the armor too because he loses his monk bonus to AC either way. Oh, and did I mention he loses some spells? But he can grapple so much better you say? Whoop dee doo. That +4 just made it SO much easier to avoid the purple worm. I'll take freedom of movement thank you.What you are doing is trading seven points of AC for the ability to move 10 extra feet per round and be ever so slightly sneakier (yes that -5 armor check penalty is a dead giveaway to opponents with +30 on their Listen/Spot checks). The penalty to Swim checks is moot when you can cast freedom of movement. The penalty to Climb and Jump checks is moot when you can cast air walk. All you are really getting is 10 extra feet per round. When you consider that at high levels the wizard will often cast haste or quickened haste in the first round, the 20 speed stops being such a huge issue. If it really bugs you so badly, you can always pick up boots of striding and springing; it isn't like there are that many items clamboring for your boot spot anyway.Look, here's the bottom line. The OP's players obviously favor light armor over heavy armor. Maybe they really value mobility or have character concepts that support it. Maybe they are playing classes that don't specialize in heavy armor. If they are, so be it. Those are the characters they want to play. Heavy armor will almost always get you a better AC, lighter armor is a trade-off that gets you better speed. If that is what his players want, then that is what they value. Making heavy armor more attractive is not the solution and is likely to make heavy armor too powerful in his campaign. If he wants to highlight the potential of good armor, then he could have his PCs face villains who are heavily armored, or simply give the PCs access to other kinds of armor from Arms & Equipment or Races of Stone.</blockquote>

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