Help me deal with ki straps

[Werdnam]

I have an 8th level monk player in my campaign whom I allowed to buy a set of ki straps (an item from Sword and Fist which adds +5 to the DC of your stunning attacks). Now that I've seen them in play, I'm a bit concerned about them -- it means that well over half the time, if the monk can attack something, then it is stunned for several rounds.

Has there been any thought from others as to whether this item is overpowered/underpriced? In retrospect, I feel that it should give a +2 or +3 to the stun DC; adding +5 to a save is just huge!

I apologize if this has been discussed to death already. It seems like the sort of thing that would have already popped up, but I haven't seen a thread on this topic before. Perhaps I just missed it.

 

[psionotic]

Interesting...

Our monk has had a pair of these since about 5th level. They never seemed unbalancing to me. Of course, we fight lots of things that can't be stunned (undead, elementals, constructs, etc). But even in fights against humanoids, he is seemingly only slightly more successful at stunning foes than he was before. This is the first time I've seen a nerfing discussion come up in regards to this item.

 

[Crothian]

I would think that it would bring the DC up to a point it might be useful. The normal DC is not that good against most things we fight. The monk in our party is 15th level and I can't remember him ever successfully stun someone.

 

[Werdnam]

Hmm. Thanks for the feedback. Maybe I'm just misperceiving it, or maybe my dice are just really bad at Fort saves!

 

[hong]

Hmm. Thanks for the feedback. Maybe I'm just misperceiving it, or maybe my dice are just really bad at Fort saves!

Two things to remember:
1) The monk can only make 1 stunning attack per day per level, so for an 8th level monk that's 8 times per day.

2) The stunning effect only lasts for 1 round (albeit that may be more than enough).

 

[Grendel]

This has been said a thousand times, but i will say again. If you have few difficult encounters players will easily overcome them (wizards will blast all their spells, clerics use all their healing, and monks all their stunning strikes), try more encounters with more creatures between their healing cycles.

Ki straps are VERY powerful items, but not game breakers unless you have 4 encounters a day with 4 seperate creatures (the fomula presented in the DMG). mix it up, more weaker creatures, sure they will save less often but there is an advantage in numbers too.

ALSO remember that stunning only lasts for 1 round, and only one ATTEMPT can be made a round (whether the monk hits or misses).

 

[Werdnam]

This has been said a thousand times, but i will say again. If you have few difficult encounters players will easily overcome them (wizards will blast all their spells, clerics use all their healing, and monks all their stunning strikes), try more encounters with more creatures between their healing cycles.

I am aware of this problem, and I think that it is indeed a factor in my game. However, to implement the several-encounters-per-day model would have recently strained story plausibility. It just didn't make sense with where the campaign is currently.

Hopefully I'll be able to mix up the encounters a bit in the near future.

ALSO remember that stunning only lasts for 1 round, and only one ATTEMPT can be made a round (whether the monk hits or misses).

I am aware of both of these facts, but thanks anyway. Besides, as someone else pointed out, one round has been more than enough ESPECIALLY because a stunned opponent drops what they're carrying. This means, if you're fighting armed opponents, the opponent will drop their weapon, thus provoking an attack of opportunity in the next round just to re-arm themselves. And I've had some recent combats in which the monk has gotten off successive stunning rounds, which pretty much spells quick death for the opponent.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Werdnam:

I haven't dealt with ki straps in my campaign specifically, but I do know that a lot of times, what's a problem in one campaign won't be in another, and vice-versa. I have no trouble believing that the straps have become a serious problem in your campaign, even if they haven't in others'.

First of all, I'd suggest trying to find ways to tone down the power of the items through tactics. This would allow the monk to keep the straps and get use out of them, without spoiling the game for everyone else.

Secondly, if you find that your campaign just can't deal with a monk who has +5 to the DC of his stunning blows, then take the player aside, explain this to him, and suggest a way to deal with it. Perhaps by giving the player a choice of a) keeping the gloves, but with a lower bonus (perhaps the enchantment was faulty and weakened after a while,) or b) getting another, different item (that you don't have any qualms with) in exchange for the straps going bye-bye. I find that balance issues such as these are best dealt with up-front with the players. That way, they know the situation, and feel they're being dealt with fairly.

Now back to the first-of-all. One easy way to deal with the fact that stunned creatures drop their weapons is to arm your foes with more than one weapon. Chances are, all your PCs carry multiple weapons. Daggers certainly, and possibly short swords, or even long and greatswords for fighters. Make sure your NPCs do the same.

I remember one time my rogue fought a gnome fighter who'd been tweaked as a killing-machine with the gnome hooked hammer. My rogue disarmed the gnome in the first round, and proceeded to punish him with his own weapon, because the gnome didn't have a backup. Always have a backup. This holds for PCs and NPCs alike. Drawing a secondary weapon can be accomplished as part of a move, and doesn't provoke AoOs. With Quick Draw, you don't even have to move.

Since you mentioned that throwing out lots of lower-level critters would be problematic in your campaign, then this next suggestion might be impossible too, but in any case: try and use foes which have good saves. The DC with +5 is strong, but not impossible for foes with a good fort save. Try using more clerics and fighters, more fiends, more magical beasts, and, best of all...more monks. There's nothing like an NPC monk to spoil the PC monk's party.

Of course, any and all of these tactics shouldn't be used all the time, since PCs should be allowed to use their powers. And with that, my last bit of advice, stolen with respect from one of the masters of our hobby:

http://www.montecook.com/dmonly.html

 

[Werdnam]

Thanks for the tips, Pendragon! The "backup" idea is pure gold -- I wish I would have thought of it.

And thanks for the reminder about letting PCs use their toys. It's something I'm aware of. Truthfully, it's not so much that I'm concerned the party is winning all the time (because really they SHOULD win at least most of the time, since TPK's are no fun for anyone); it's that I want to be sure that they don't get to use the same trick all the time, because I want the combats and situations to be varied and interesting.

I have talked with the player about how this appears to be a problem, and he seems amenable to tweaking the straps, if I deem it necessary. For now, I'll probably just keep an eye on it; I do tend to get attached to "my guys" (the PC opponents), so I may just be imagining the problem out of frustration at having my guys get stunned so much.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Sounds like you've got everything under control! Good gaming!