Help me design this DEMONOLOGY system

[Turanil]

I want to create a Demonology system that doesn't require any new class (core or prestige), but just relies on feat and rituals. Note that I ALREADY have WotC Book of Vile Darkness and Mongoose Publishing Demonology supplements, but want to do something different; so don't tell me to buy these books, but you could point to some feat, spell, or idea that could be of use for my own system.

Here is my basic idea:

1) Any normal spellcaster (cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer) could be tempted into delving into demonology / black magic, so no need to take a new class, it's available to all. It would give more power to the spellcaster but at a hefty price.

2) First, a spellcaster needs to get the required feats. This is a feat chain, the first feat enable to perform the simplest sumoning/binding rituals, while the last theoretically enables you to summon an archfiend. However, taking a feat also gives you a flaw / curse / whatever, in addition to puting your soul in jeopardy.

3) It uses spells, of various levels, but these spells require to have the feat (see above) to cast them, plus are long and complex rituals taking time, material, pentagram, and a die roll (with dire consequence for dramatic failure). Then, when a fiend is summoned and bound to the caster, the spell slots remain unavailable to further summoning attempts. I mean, normally spell slots are "recovered" each new day, but here, as long as a fiend is bound to the caster, the spell-slots that were used to summon it, bind it, etc. are not recovered until the fiend is killed or freed. (BTW: this is different from the spell Planar Ally in that the caster doesn't bargain with and pay an ally, but instead enslaves the fiend without compensation).


Okay, my main problem with such system is the various rituals that can exist beyond summoning and binding, and then, which creatures are summoned at what level, and for what duration?

Any comment and suggestion welcome!

 

[fuindordm]

1) Any normal spellcaster (cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer) could be tempted into delving into demonology / black magic, so no need to take a new class, it's available to all. It would give more power to the spellcaster but at a hefty price.

The problem with inserting a system like this into a campaign that already has the core level of magic, is that spellcasters are already so powerful that it's hard to see what the benefits would be. If you make the firends powerful enough to be really tempting, then they're also going to be kind of game-breaking. In a low-magic setting, it works better.

For example, in Grim Tales one of the main advantages of dabbling in demonology would be that the fiend could teach you new spells, or cast them for you (so you don't have to take the spell burn).

In core D&D, summoning a fiend as you say is probably just a variant of the Summon Monster/Planar Ally spell types--you want to be able to get an ally probably both slightly more powerful and for a longer duration than a Summon Monster spell of the same level, and pay for the privelige with feats.

Compare the benefit to a wizard with Spell Focus: Conjuration, Enhanced Summoning, and Extend Spell (all creatures get +4 Str and Con, hang around for twice as long--if I focused on Infernal and demonic creatures, I'm already giving myself the flavor you're looking for.

Now imagine feats called Infernal Pact (prereq: spell focus: conjuration) and Infernal Ally (prereq: infernal pact). What benefits should they give? They could be slightly more powerful than the core feats mentioned above, if they come with a price to the character.

One idea would just be to let the character summon a specific creature instead of a generic creature. The creature performs one service and then returns, but can hang around for much longer (still keeping a time limit of 1 round per level for typical combat duty, but allowing more flexibility if the player has other ideas). The corresponding disadvantage would be that you always summon the same creature, and if it dies then you have to go through a long and expensive spellcasting ritual such as you describe to bind another one. I would allow this option with no cost to the character--their price is paid in investing ranks in Planar Knowledge, and funds in the rituals required to gain the Infernal ally. The idea can just as easily be inverted to get a celestial ally.

This doesn't address the flavor issue of offering a fast, but dangerous road to power. What if the ally could be chosen from the summon monster list one level higher (so you use a level 1 spell to summon a level 2 ally)?

What's an appropriate cost? Charisma check to command the demon each time, or else...
a) demon attacks you? Not great, the party as a whole could make mincemeat of it.
b) demon escapes to work against you? Better... you've set an evil force loose in the world, and it hates you.
c) ally breaks free of its magical bonds, returns home or escapes as it wishes. Either way, you need to go through the ritual again.
d) demon possesses you? Having a protection from evil spell running will take care of that threat.
e) demon attacks your allies? Could be interesting, if you don't know whether or not you maintained control until it acts.
f) demon demands an additional price for service, else it will break its bonds and do whatever it damn well pleases. Could be xp, gold, the caster's own flesh, memories, an innocent life, etc.
g) spellcaster suffers Taint (see unearthed arcana) or is otherwise changed in unsettling ways.

The main problem is this--you have to jump many spell levels for a demonic ally to be powerful enough to be a threat to the spellcaster who summoned it, and even more for it to be a threat to the party. You can't make this *too* risky to the player or no one will dabble in it, and you can't make the ally powerful enough to be a credible threat without giving away too much power to the player. Even if you just arbitrarily create a small chance of losing your soul each time you fail the summoning, it's unbalanced--the player is very powerful for an indeterminate period of time, then dies.

I think the best way to handle it would be to make the cost some kind of visible, physical and/or spiritual transformation that has an in-game effect: penalties to social skills, small animals fleeing, social stigma, etc.

Ben

 

[Bryon_Soulweaver]

An idea! Demons are almost always evil (any) and half-demons are can be any alignment and most has evil tendencies, sometimes acting like their pure-blood kin even if they are good. Demons also have BAB and sorcerer spells equal to their HD, half-demons could have sorcorer or fighter as their favored class; depending on which one they choose first. Hmmm.......... If you want a wild idea, have each demon look different with different abilties.



For example: You could have a half-demon thats only gifted abilities is its strength (which would be something like +16 or something) and has the horns of a bull and the fangs of a serpent; CE for the heck of it. BOOM! Large sized (or strong-build) humanoid with horns, poisonis bite, and super strength. Killing everything in sight just for fun or for hired to do so.

Another example: Same half-demon except its a sorcerer and is CG, with slight urges to hurt small animals except snakes. This time the half-demon watches over elven forests and has the serpents of the woods under his command, watching for danger and signs of trouble for any elf traveling alone or in groups, helping them if need be.

 

[Storyteller01]

My two cents:

Take the Knowledge: Demonology skill from MGP's book and make it open to all. That's the focus of the ability as a whole, so whose using it shouldn't pose too much of a problem. The system has more than enough fail safes on failed rolls to keep it from being abused. It opens up plenty of RP potential (the 'evil wizard' everyone is trying to find is actually the 13th level Expert who collects and sells rare books...). If nothing else, you can use this as a means of determinig whether the ritual was successful before spending spells slots.

You could take the PrC abilities of the standard demonologist and split them up into feats. They seem rather basic (a good thing), so making requirements for these feats could be as simple as figuring out what the Demonoligts Max skill rank would be at that PrC level.

You could also allow some of these PrC abilities to replace core abilities via ritual or feat chain (imagine a druid using the abilities of the 'Possessed' instead of their usual wild shape).

 

[Quickleaf]

1. Limit the spell list of casters in your campaign, like disallowing summoning/binding magic and anything overtly fiendish.

2. Add the feat, which allows access to such spells.

3. Use the theurgy system from Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Guide, which has nice complex ritual rules. Or use the ones from Ars Magica, or from any other source...

4. Create a list of backlashes that occur in stages of degree. (e.g. Fail Diplomacy check by 1-5 no biggie, 6-10 you're in deep trouble, 11-15 the end of your life as you know it) You might use Unearthed Arcana's taint or Blue Rose's sorcerous corruption.

5. Provide a way to counter the summoning magic.

 

[fuindordm]

I should say that I liked the Mongoose book too. I don't know that adding another skill is the way to go though.

Here are some thoughts for a complete system:

Feat: Demonologist
Benefit: every rank in Knowledge (the Planes) grants you the true name and binding rituals required for one demon that you have learned through extensive research. The demons need not be defined right away, but if one of your bound demons dies or escapes you, that name is no longer usable to you.

Feat: Infernal Ally
Benefit: you can use the rituals gained from Knowledge ranks as described above to bind demons to your personal service. Binding a demon has three principle costs:
Time: the ritual to bind any demon takes at least 24 hours, and more powerful demons may require even more time (generally one full day per 4 CR)
Money: the cost in rare materials is equal to the CR of the demon squared, times 100 gp
Power: some of the caster's available magical power is bound up in the ritual. A player can bind any demon that he could normally summon through a spell with no additional cost. Other demons may also be bound with no additional cost if their CRx2 is less than the character's level. If the demon's CRx2 is greater than the character's level, the difference must be paid in spell slots that becme unavailable to the caster while the demon is in his service.
XP: the cost in XP to bind a demon is equal to the demon's CR squared, times 4.

Example: Cain the Conjurer (level 5) wants to bind a Chain Devil (CR6) to his service. The ritual costs 3600 gp and 2 days to perform, and if it works then Cain must give up 12-5=7 spell levels' worth of spell slots. He gives up 2 first-level spells, 1 2nd-level spell, and a 3rd level spell, leaving him with 2/1/0 base spell slots that he can prepare spells in. Costly, but he's gaining access to a resource that he wouldn't be able to summon normally until level 11.

Using an infernal ally:

If a character has the Demonologist and Infernal Ally feats, they can bind a demon at the costs described above. Once the ritual is performed, the demon appears in the material plane but is bound by the ritual to take no actions other than communicating with its summoner. The caster must make a Diplomacy or Intimidate skill check (DC=10+demon CRx2) to determine the terms of the service. 5 ranks in Knowledge (the Plaines) gives a +2 synergy bonus to the roll, and casters with Spell Focus: Conjuration gain another +2 to the roll. The caster may take 10 on this roll if desired. The degree of success or failure determines the terms of the service:

Succeed by 10 or more: Demon sees great promise in you, and will provide extended services if you request it.
Succeed by 5 or more: Demon is happy to work with you, and will perform unusual or strenuous services
Success: Demon enters your service for the pleasure of working in the mortal world, but will make not put itself in danger without a minor payment.
Fail by no more than 5: Demon demands a minor payment for any service, or a major payment for putting itself in danger.
Fail by no more than 10: Demon demands an exhorbitant payment to put itself in danger, or a major payment for other services; if payment is not provided, it will refuse any further summons.
Fail by 10 or more: Demon demands an exhorbitant payment even for minor services; if denied, it returns and will refuse any further summons.

Example: Cain has a Cha of 16 and maxxed-out Diplomacy skill, and 5 ranks in Planar Knowledge for +10 to his roll. The DC is 22. He could take 10 and offer the demon an additional payment such as the sacrifice of a horse, or attempt a roll and hope to get the demon's first service for free. If he wants the demon to fight a dangerous combat for him, though, taking 10 will require him to make a major payment.

If the demon agrees to enter your service, you can demand a boon of it immediately or at some later time. When a service is completed, it returns to its home, but can thereafter be resummoned to perform another service by any Summon Monster spell with level equal to at least half the demon's CR. Each time the demon is summoned, a new diplomacy check is required.

Paying the demon:

Demons do not accept coins as payment. In order of preference, they will accept the following:

Art Objects (100 gp/CR for minor payment, 300 gp/CR for major payment, 1000 gp/CR for exhorbitant payment): the demon will destroy or defile these in front of you. The demon may refuse to accept payment in art objects, if it was paid with them on the previous summoning.

XP: (5/CR minor, 15/CR major, 50/CR exhorbitant)

Magic Items: (judgement call on DM's part, but roughly following the three treasure categories; holy items are acceptable and will also be destroyed or perverted with a curse)

Innocent lives (minor: large animal ritual sacrifice, or allowing the demon to kill a stranger; major: human sacrifice, or allowing the demon to kill an ally; exhorbitant: you must sacrifice an ally yourself)

Consequences:

The demon obeys your commands but is not under your direct control. Especially if it is out of your sight, it may try to fulfill you orders in a manner that is ultimately harmful to you or your allies.

Every demon that you successfully bind gives you one point of Taint (see unearthed arcana). Each point of taint gives you a -1 penalty to all Cha-based skills except Intimidate, but a +1 bonus to the diplomacy skill when used on demons. Every 2 points of taint gives you a -1 penalty to Fort saves. Every 3 points of taint induces a minor physical mutation that speaks to your hellish traffic.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I had Mongoose's demonology book, but I didn't like it. It was not one of the few that I took with me when I moved.

If you wish to make demonology a temptation, try using incantations; I don't recall the details, but a rough idea is that they have to have the text of the ritual, and then they have to make a number of skill checks of a particular DC; they keep making the rolls until either they succeed the required number of times, or until they fail too many times in a row. People don't have to invest a precious feat slot, they just have to have an appropriate grimoire.

There are two sets of DCs. The ones the PCs know about, and the ones that the DM knows about (or makes up later!). If the PCs make the one set, they think they are successful; but if they failed the other set, then there will be hell to pay at some later time....

In other words, if the demons are satisfied with a low initial payment, that's because it is only the first installment. Later on, the PCs get stuck with a hefty bill, with interest, and with grave consequences for failing to pay.

It allows the difficult question of balance to be finessed. If the rituals are imbalancing, trot out the "payment due." If not, then don't. The payment due is a great adventure seed. Either the motive for why someone is perpetrating villainy, or something for a PC dabbler to address.

If you do make it a feat, make it give a hefty bonus (maybe +4 to skill checks with incantations, +1 to save DCs in one school, and a +1 caster level bonus- i.e a triple feat) along with a penalty to normal spellcasting. It should be addictive, and just a little too good to be true. I think a good penalty would mean that your ability score is "capped" for the purposes of determining bonus spells and the highest level spells you can cast. That makes it tempting to low level spellcasters and those with relatively low spellcasting stats. They won't worry about never being able to cast high level spells; they want power now! There might be hidden penalties too. Dunno.

Short term gain, long term pain.

I think the most common type of incantation would be the "influence people" one. Basically a charm monster against a specified target (who need not be present, but who perhaps has to accept a trigger item, or drink something that the caster has added a drop of his own blood to, or something). It would be the generic love spell/get a promotion spell. Win friends and influence people. A tie for most common would be a wealth seeking incantation. Find treasure, get an inheritance, win the lottery.... something like that. Inheritance is good; it means someone dies. Arranging for a person to be offered a bribe or hush money would also be a good (by "good" I mean "evil") way for demons to give that person money.

 

[Turanil]

Art Objects (100 gp/CR for minor payment, 300 gp/CR for major payment, 1000 gp/CR for exhorbitant payment): the demon will destroy or defile these in front of you.

LOL!! I can't wait to try this in a gaming session. This probably will stun the player, and I should have a great laugh.

Anyway, thanks to all for your suggestion, I should soon be able to design a decent demonology system.