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Message: <blockquote data-quote="fuindordm" data-source="post: 2525669" data-attributes="member: 5435">The problem with inserting a system like this into a campaign that already has the core level of magic, is that spellcasters are already so powerful that it's hard to see what the benefits would be.  If you make the firends powerful enough to be really tempting, then they're also going to be kind of game-breaking.  In a low-magic setting, it works better.For example, in Grim Tales one of the main advantages of dabbling in demonology would be that the fiend could teach you new spells, or cast them for you (so you don't have to take the spell burn).In core D&D, summoning a fiend as you say is probably just a variant of the Summon Monster/Planar Ally spell types--you want to be able to get an ally probably both slightly more powerful and for a longer duration than a Summon Monster spell of the same level, and pay for the privelige with feats.  Compare the benefit to a wizard with Spell Focus: Conjuration, Enhanced Summoning, and Extend Spell (all creatures get +4 Str and Con, hang around for twice as long--if I focused on Infernal and demonic creatures, I'm already giving myself the flavor you're looking for.Now imagine feats called Infernal Pact (prereq: spell focus: conjuration) and Infernal Ally (prereq: infernal pact).  What benefits should they give?  They could be slightly more powerful than the core feats mentioned above, if they come with a price to the character.One idea would just be to let the character summon a specific creature instead of a generic creature.  The creature performs one service and then returns, but can hang around for much longer (still keeping a time limit of 1 round per level for typical combat duty, but allowing more flexibility if the player has other ideas). The corresponding disadvantage would be that you always summon the same creature, and if it dies then you have to go through a long and expensive spellcasting ritual such as you describe to bind another one. I would allow this option with no cost to the character--their price is paid in investing ranks in Planar Knowledge, and funds in the rituals required to gain the Infernal ally.  The idea can just as easily be inverted to get a celestial ally.This doesn't address the flavor issue of offering a fast, but dangerous road to power.  What if the ally could be chosen from the summon monster list one level higher (so you use a level 1 spell to summon a level 2 ally)? What's an appropriate cost?  Charisma check to command the demon each time, or else...a) demon attacks you?  Not great, the party as a whole could make mincemeat of it.b) demon escapes to work against you?  Better... you've set an evil force loose in the world, and it hates you.c) ally breaks free of its magical bonds, returns home or escapes as it wishes.  Either way, you need to go through the ritual again.d) demon possesses you?  Having a protection from evil spell running will take care of that threat.e) demon attacks your allies?  Could be interesting, if you don't know whether or not you maintained control until it acts.f) demon demands an additional price for service, else it will break its bonds and do whatever it damn well pleases.  Could be xp, gold, the caster's own flesh, memories, an innocent life, etc.g) spellcaster suffers Taint (see unearthed arcana) or is otherwise changed in unsettling ways.The main problem is this--you have to jump many spell levels for a demonic ally to be powerful enough to be a threat to the spellcaster who summoned it, and even more for it to be a threat to the party.  You can't make this *too* risky to the player or no one will dabble in it, and you can't make the ally powerful enough to be a credible threat without giving away too much power to the player.  Even if you just arbitrarily create a small chance of losing your soul each time you fail the summoning, it's unbalanced--the player is very powerful for an indeterminate period of time, then dies.I think the best way to handle it would be to make the cost some kind of visible, physical and/or spiritual transformation that has an in-game effect: penalties to social skills, small animals fleeing, social stigma, etc. Ben</blockquote>

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