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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 1827243" data-attributes="member: 16814">I think your problem is with metagaming, not the rules.  Yes, it is true that we do sometimes miss the obvious, but usually not when we go to exhustive measures not to.  When I am looking for something I have misplaced, I tend to randomly root around in the most likely areas first, and, if that fails, begin on one side of the room and move or touch everything until success is had.  Sometimes that does not work and I chalk that up to not mutliclassing into rogue.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />   If, however, I had no reason to suspect that something is there to be found, I would not look very hard for it, and would, therefore, likely overlook a small detail.  If your players are relying on the take 20 rule, always doing so in order to not miss anything, then they are metagaming.  "There might be something here to find, so I will look for it until I do!"  The rule is not the problem, the player is.  Changing the rule in this case is not the answer, modifiing the behavior of the player is.  If your players insist on taking 20 all the time, have some big nasty come around to "help" them hurry it up.  Maybe apply a -5 circumstance penalty to thier spot/listen checks to see it coming because they are so engrossed in searching. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" /> I once believed as you did that the take 20 on search was a bad thing.  Repeated discussions on this fine messageboard showed me that I was wrong.  Follow the Smurf... his rules-fu is strong. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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