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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1445707" data-attributes="member: 3146">OK, so you've got a group of players who've figured out how to play very effective clerics. Good for them. Hardhead's claim that a well constructed 12th level character can be more effective than a typical 16th level character, however, seems WAY off the mark. Unless your idea of a typical character is the rolewimp, you'll be lucky to get one or two levels in effectiveness above a solidly constructed "typical" character.And, in any event, that is not a problem limited to parties of clerics. A party of good players will be able to slightly overperform their level on a regular basis whether it's balanced, all clerics, or even all bards (obviously a somewhat unusual campaign but I've seen all kinds of bards). If you succeed in pushing your players away from clerics but don't change their style of play, you'll be facing the same problem again anyway.Well the nice thing about D&D is that scissors actually CAN beat rock. You can build the baddest fighter-type you want but your DM can still toss you up against a troll barbarian with Reckless Assault (enemies and allies) and a potion of bull's strength. You can be the "unhittable" monk/wizard and you'll crumple in seconds against a character that can actually hit (which isn't that hard to do--a kobold fighter/sorceror with true strike and a small greatsword will typically eat such characters for breakfast).Or maybe that's the players trying to use rock to beat paper.But scissors can work against rock too. There are plenty of spells and effects and ways to make the little guy do better. An evil priest with recitation, bear's heart, and a bard lackey with a natural horn (Song and Silence) will make his mook legions tear the PCs up pretty well. The low-level evil clerics can use summoning spells, etc rather than will-save spells to deal with the all-cleric party.I'm still not sure where this is coming from. Combat in D&D has a rock/paper/scissors aspect to it but it's not rock/paper/scissors. There's an almost infinite number of strategies and situations for the DM out there--even if it's against a party with nearly all the same strengths and weaknesses. I really don't see how that will actually help you. The clerics will still have the ability to take the two or four non-cure and non-domain spells per level that they actually use right now. This technique is a decrease in flexibility for the clerics not a really significant decrease in power.I don't see the problem with this. One of the reasons that a lot of people don't like playing clerics is because they are always casting all their spells for healing and never actually doing anything. (It's also one of the reasons people play melee-focussed clerics: so they have something to do other than heal).Since we've got the time to ask questions here, how do you normally generate attributes for your party? In my experience, the lower the point buy, the less effective cross-trained characters are. The 25 point buy cleric can't simultaneously be both a cleric and a fighter. (Or at least the difference between him and a real fighter is MUCH more noticable because the difference made by weapon focus and a few points of BAB is a lot more noticable when characters are running around with 16 and 14 strength instead of 18 and 16).Another factor about low-point buy is that a lot of tweaking depends upon combining various feats and abilities. Low point buy makes qualifying for the various feats very painful if you're trying to keep your wisdom boosted high enough to be a cleric as well. So the tendency to want to tweak characters and explore intersting combos mitigates against clerics in a low point buy game far more than it does in a game where a cleric could actually have Str 14 (power attack, etc), Dex 13 (dodge, spring attack, etc), Con 14, Int 13 (expertise, Imp Trip, etc), wis 15 (spells), cha 13 (Divine Might, etc)This is probably the most significant thing you could do to release the pressure of the all-cleric party that is playing effectively above it's level in power. With reduced stats, the differences between classes are more noticable. And, more significantly for the overall power creep angle (which seems to be your real problem), highly optimized, tweaked 25 point buy characters are challenged by the exact same foes as normal, non-optimized 32-36 point buy characters and role-wimp 42 point characters. So, the lower point buy reduces the power pressure on the DM.Also, just to add one note of disagreement into this: beefing up other character classes does run the risk of power creep but it isn't as great as some people seem to think. (Or, at least, game balance is often a more durable and predictable thing than people think). For instance, my suggestion of giving fighters a free exotic weapon prof would have quite a predictable effect: most fighters would use exotic weapons. If you really dislike the spiked chain (as many people do) you could ban that. What you'd be left with is a few more double weapon fighters and a lot of bastard sword and waraxe fighters. Basically, you'd get 3.5 dwarf fighters in 3.0 only they wouldn't have to be dwarves. (And despite suggestions to the contrary--many of which I made myself--3.5 dwarven weapon familiarity hasn't killed 3.5 balance yet). Similarly, if you gave wizards extra skill points, the results would also be predictable: if knowledge skills are useful in your game, the wizards would have more of them. If not, they'd buy cross-class ranks in spot and listen or tumble. The game is IMO fairly well balanced as is, but balance can survive small adjustments. And if getting people to play classes other than cleric is a more important goal than pushing back the power curve, then upping the other classes a bit may lure some people away from cleric painlessly.</blockquote>

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