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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Not a Decepticon" data-source="post: 9360378" data-attributes="member: 7020527">False dichotomy. "Either simulation or gamism" completely removes roleplay. It's either "you're here for GM'S WORLD and GM'S story" r "you're here to roll dumb dice!". You completely deleted roleplay. And I'm not showing up to a game to roleplay an useless duck and be butt of other players' jokes, it sounds like for ours of being bored, feeling useless, all for one jerk's sick power trip.And once again, you think giving players any power or agency means "compromising the setting". Listen, I like existing settings, but the best thing about them is watching them change in players' hands and see consequences of their actions, good or bad, leave mark on the world. It's a beautiful part of roleplaying and I find it really sad you just see it as "those pesky players ruining your precious setting". If a setting is a porcelain doll for you to look at, but not touch, it shouldn't be published as an rpg, but an artbook.Powered by the Apocalypse and Forged in the Dark are literally the first types of games people point out as examples of "Neotrad" and agressively contrast them with OSR. They are first games paraded around as "tyranny of fun" or "taking GM's power away" or "making everything about player decisions". In Blades it's all about PCs making decisions and about consequences of their actions. Let players succeed at changing the setting is literally one of advices in Blades in the Dark book, with an example given being assassination of important named NPC. Half of things we've been discussing here can be found in Forged in the Dark games, but the moment they don't fit the horribly negative potrayal you people are painting, they suddenly "don't count". no true Scotsman, that's what this is.But these games are exactly what we've been discussing here - they put emphasis on player agency, they help tailoring the plot to the character, they allow players to change the setting through their actions. The only thing not fitting is they don't treat the character as a precious thing nothing bad can happen to and, to be frank, I think this point is just a strawman potrayal of the "neotrad" style, something assigned to mispresent and mock the people who prefer it. I think most players in this style can take something bad happenning to their character, as long as it narratively makes sense, comes from character actions and we feel DM didn't pull some shenanigans to make it happen.</blockquote>

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