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Help Me Understand the GURPS Design Perspective
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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 7849829" data-attributes="member: 177"><p>As I said - if you have a problem with the genre itself, we can't help you with that. We cannot change the genre itself - we can at best munge a game system into emulating it..</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Note: Flash typically needs the "Cosmic Treadmill" to travel in time. His speed alone is not sufficient. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except, of course, the real issue here is not the action, so much as it is the nonsensical labels the writers put on it. Whether Superman knows what an attosecond is isn't the issue - whether the writers do is. </p><p></p><p>So, again, I say you are getting mussed up by how a genre with inconsistent physics is using physics words, and then holding it to that by putting it into a physics simulation, and finding issues with the results...</p><p></p><p>Well, <em>what else did you expec</em>t?</p><p></p><p>The thing that's been said several times, which seems to be getting ignored, is that the physics simulation form <em>does not work well for superhero comics!</em>. Should I say that in all caps, so it comes across? </p><p></p><p><em>PHYSICS SIM GAMES (and interpretations) DON'T WORK WELL FOR SUPERHERO COMICS!</em></p><p></p><p>Thik of this instead in terms of the narrative. Superman does not have the power: "moves faster than light". He really has the power, "moves at the speed of plot". When he pushes to the point seem in the segment you show, from our perspective, what is going on is the GM is asking, "How much do you want to put into saving her? You may be able to do it, but it'll cost you..."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, with asking for consistency?</p><p></p><p>Superman comics are not true crime novels. Nor are they biographies. They are mythologies. Mythology isn't clean, or consistent. Mythology is built over generations by various authors, and sometimes the stories don't mesh too well. Asking DC comics depictions of Superman over the decades to be consistent is like asking the musical <em>Camelot</em>, Malory's <em>Le Morte d'Arthur</em>, and Peter David's <em>Knight Life</em>, to be consistent. </p><p></p><p>They are consistent in THEME. Not in the specifics of what characters can physically do.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fictionally, Superman is positioned as an immigrant with superpowers. He grew up among us - his displayed emotions and reactions are entirely human, as are those of other Kryptonians. Kryptonians blend in with humans perfectly, without setting off anyone's sense of the uncanny valley. Humans behave like Kryptonians. Same for Daxamites, who are positioned as alternate Kryptonians. Anyone who knows evolutionary science would take this to be complete horsepucky, but we are also talking about a universe in which you have multiple species with outward morphology that's basically indistinguishible from each other anyway. </p><p></p><p>If you want a character who might not signal as a human being, you want Martian Manhunter, who is positioned as an Alien Among Us. J'onn J'onzz is frequently depicted with what humans would call a flat affect, and hard to read. J'onn also has occaisional trouble understanding human choices, and humans sometimes don't quite get him. He can pass when he wants to, because he can also shapeshift and read minds to meet expectations, but sometimes he doesn't use that power. He is, however, not quite as strong or fast, so he doesn't pose the same problems as Superman, either.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, he is a god. Not just in the "among the most powerful" sense, but in the mythological sense. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure. Game mechanics do not <em>ensure</em> success. We are only arguing that you <em>apply the mechanic</em> rather than pre-decide, "Bats can't succeed at this." </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, let's go back to one of the very first superhero role playing games - "FASERIP" Marvel Super Heroes. It had the concept of "karma points". Characters of a given power level could stretch their abilities up to higher levels... but it cost them Karma. When they ran out of karma, they were at the mercy of dice.</p><p></p><p>So, for our purposes... Bats ran out of Karma. And then, he's a little more vulnerable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except, they totally do. I mean, in canon, it is all over the place that Superman's expressions are entirely human - he hangs his head when ashamed or sad. He furrows his brow and grits his teeth when angry. He smiles and laughs. Imagine - Clark Kent and Lois Lane will not be attracted to each other if their sub-conscious tells are not readable to each other! The comics very specifically draw Kryptonians and Daxamites with entirely human expressions. For whatever reason, they are exactly like humans in these respects.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 7849829, member: 177"] As I said - if you have a problem with the genre itself, we can't help you with that. We cannot change the genre itself - we can at best munge a game system into emulating it.. Note: Flash typically needs the "Cosmic Treadmill" to travel in time. His speed alone is not sufficient. Except, of course, the real issue here is not the action, so much as it is the nonsensical labels the writers put on it. Whether Superman knows what an attosecond is isn't the issue - whether the writers do is. So, again, I say you are getting mussed up by how a genre with inconsistent physics is using physics words, and then holding it to that by putting it into a physics simulation, and finding issues with the results... Well, [I]what else did you expec[/I]t? The thing that's been said several times, which seems to be getting ignored, is that the physics simulation form [I]does not work well for superhero comics![/I]. Should I say that in all caps, so it comes across? [I]PHYSICS SIM GAMES (and interpretations) DON'T WORK WELL FOR SUPERHERO COMICS![/I] Thik of this instead in terms of the narrative. Superman does not have the power: "moves faster than light". He really has the power, "moves at the speed of plot". When he pushes to the point seem in the segment you show, from our perspective, what is going on is the GM is asking, "How much do you want to put into saving her? You may be able to do it, but it'll cost you..." Again, with asking for consistency? Superman comics are not true crime novels. Nor are they biographies. They are mythologies. Mythology isn't clean, or consistent. Mythology is built over generations by various authors, and sometimes the stories don't mesh too well. Asking DC comics depictions of Superman over the decades to be consistent is like asking the musical [I]Camelot[/I], Malory's [I]Le Morte d'Arthur[/I], and Peter David's [I]Knight Life[/I], to be consistent. They are consistent in THEME. Not in the specifics of what characters can physically do. Fictionally, Superman is positioned as an immigrant with superpowers. He grew up among us - his displayed emotions and reactions are entirely human, as are those of other Kryptonians. Kryptonians blend in with humans perfectly, without setting off anyone's sense of the uncanny valley. Humans behave like Kryptonians. Same for Daxamites, who are positioned as alternate Kryptonians. Anyone who knows evolutionary science would take this to be complete horsepucky, but we are also talking about a universe in which you have multiple species with outward morphology that's basically indistinguishible from each other anyway. If you want a character who might not signal as a human being, you want Martian Manhunter, who is positioned as an Alien Among Us. J'onn J'onzz is frequently depicted with what humans would call a flat affect, and hard to read. J'onn also has occaisional trouble understanding human choices, and humans sometimes don't quite get him. He can pass when he wants to, because he can also shapeshift and read minds to meet expectations, but sometimes he doesn't use that power. He is, however, not quite as strong or fast, so he doesn't pose the same problems as Superman, either. Well, he is a god. Not just in the "among the most powerful" sense, but in the mythological sense. Sure. Game mechanics do not [I]ensure[/I] success. We are only arguing that you [I]apply the mechanic[/I] rather than pre-decide, "Bats can't succeed at this." So, let's go back to one of the very first superhero role playing games - "FASERIP" Marvel Super Heroes. It had the concept of "karma points". Characters of a given power level could stretch their abilities up to higher levels... but it cost them Karma. When they ran out of karma, they were at the mercy of dice. So, for our purposes... Bats ran out of Karma. And then, he's a little more vulnerable. Except, they totally do. I mean, in canon, it is all over the place that Superman's expressions are entirely human - he hangs his head when ashamed or sad. He furrows his brow and grits his teeth when angry. He smiles and laughs. Imagine - Clark Kent and Lois Lane will not be attracted to each other if their sub-conscious tells are not readable to each other! The comics very specifically draw Kryptonians and Daxamites with entirely human expressions. For whatever reason, they are exactly like humans in these respects. [/QUOTE]
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