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<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 4633019" data-attributes="member: 40961">For what its worth, I think its a little crazy to try to isolate individual abilities within a character class, label them by role, and then disallow discussion of anything outside a chosen set of bounds.I mean, our paladin in my group can't quite restrict enemy movement as well as the fighter, fine.&nbsp; Its true.&nbsp; I think the mark is equally good (because guaranteed damage versus possible damage is often mathematically better), but the paladin's OAs kind of suck since she's charisma based.&nbsp; But you know what?&nbsp; She is constantly using Enfeebling Strike, reducing enemy attack rolls against the whole party.&nbsp; And she's picked smites that further penalize enemy attacks, and which heal allies.&nbsp; And she's picked other powers that let her push an ally aside and take a hit instead of them, a defender trick that the fighter isn't capable of doing at all.&nbsp;Now, I know that generally penalize attack rolls is arguably not a defender shtick, its more controller, and healing allies is more leader.&nbsp; But... I think roles are more holistic than that.&nbsp; They apply to the whole character, not just each individual piece of a character.&nbsp; I do think that we can have intelligent discussion about whether a class fully fulfills a role, and I think we can intelligently discuss whether a particular ability aids in a role or not, but I don't think we can draw lines quite as finely as we're doing here.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 4633019, member: 40961"] For what its worth, I think its a little crazy to try to isolate individual abilities within a character class, label them by role, and then disallow discussion of anything outside a chosen set of bounds. I mean, our paladin in my group can't quite restrict enemy movement as well as the fighter, fine. Its true. I think the mark is equally good (because guaranteed damage versus possible damage is often mathematically better), but the paladin's OAs kind of suck since she's charisma based. But you know what? She is constantly using Enfeebling Strike, reducing enemy attack rolls against the whole party. And she's picked smites that further penalize enemy attacks, and which heal allies. And she's picked other powers that let her push an ally aside and take a hit instead of them, a defender trick that the fighter isn't capable of doing at all. Now, I know that generally penalize attack rolls is arguably not a defender shtick, its more controller, and healing allies is more leader. But... I think roles are more holistic than that. They apply to the whole character, not just each individual piece of a character. I do think that we can have intelligent discussion about whether a class fully fulfills a role, and I think we can intelligently discuss whether a particular ability aids in a role or not, but I don't think we can draw lines quite as finely as we're doing here. [/QUOTE]

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