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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Grackle" data-source="post: 4287863" data-attributes="member: 23976">I thought I understood how this power worked, but this actually threw me.   this is all correct.um? You save against all conditions, ongoing damage(s), and persistent effects separately, disregarding the power that caused them.  The caveat (save ends both) however, means the power's multiple effects are "linked" and the target makes one save to clear all of them.That would mean for Sleep you save against KO and slow separately, since it it doesn't have (save ends both).BUT! from the PHB page 279 under Saving Throws:"Some powers create effects that require multiple saving throws to fully escape. These powers include aftereffects that apply after you save against the initial effect. For example, a power might knock you unconscious until you save but have an aftereffect that slows you. Once you save against the unconscious condition, you need to save against the slowed condition before you’ve fully escaped the power’s effects."(Their example must be from an older version of Sleep, b/c that's not what Sleep does now, and I can't see them giving such a confusing example otherwise.)  Now, Sleep does not have aftereffects that apply after you save against the initial effect, it has effects that apply after you FAIL the initial check.  Aftereffect is more precisely defined in the MM:"Aftereffect: Some monster powers have aftereffects. An aftereffect happens automatically when a power’s initial effect ends. A creature is only subjected to an aftereffect if it was hit by the power. An aftereffect doesn’t trigger on a missed attack unless otherwise noted."So, that's not Sleep.  I'm actually having a hard time finding powers or monster abilities that have aftereffects called out.  So far all I've noticed are the poisons from the DMG, and the young white dragon in the back of the DMG.***TL;DRIn (my) conclusion: make two separate and independent saves vs Slow and KO.</blockquote>

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