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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5436868" data-attributes="member: 4937">Part 1: Tier 1Ok, so the biggest problem in core is that Wizards, Clerics, and Druids outstrip the other classes sometimes by a very considerable amount.  Druids are easy in my case.  I don't like thier flavor, and they don't meet my definition of a base class, so they are just gone - replaced by the much less versital Shaman (Green Ronin) with some minor tweaking.  Even if I were to keep them, they'd probably get a spell casting progression similar to the Bard.That leaves Wizards and Clerics.   The key to these two classes is that just looking at the class entry, you wouldn't be that impressed.   All the power of these two classes is pretty much in the spells.  So, if we address the spells in the game, we address the classes.Spells have been addressed thusly:1) You do not add the level of the spell to determine the spell's DC:  In play, this has been absolutely huge.  Right off the bat everything has at least a 5% better chance of passing its saving throw, and the bigger and more powerful spells may have bigger and more powerful effects but they are no harder to resist.  (Flavor wise, you may think of this as spellcaster can put more power into weaker spells, and comes to the casting with greater experience.)2) There is no 'Combat Casting':  If you are casting while threatened, most spells will provoke an AoO.  You can't avoid AoO simply by making a Concentration check with a minor DC.  This accentuates the difficulties caster have in melee.3) If you take a 5' step out of a threatened zone, so that you no longer threaten the target you draw an AoO:  In practice, this isn't as huge of a problem as it seems - as simply equiping yourself with a staff gets you out of jeopardy against anything without reach - but it does further complicate the difficulty a caster has in melee and further increase the need for the caster for a meat shield (conjured or allies).  4) Spell Range is Reduced: Medium range is now 50' + 10'/caster level.  Long range is now 100'+20'/caster level.   This is primarily to make sure that casters remain in the range of missile weapons and in many cases, charge attacks.  You can no longer easily hang out several hundred yards from a fight.5) Take the weaker of the 3.0 or 3.5 version of the spell:  3.5 tried to fix a few of 3.0's broken spells (Harm and Haste, chiefly).  But it also broke more spells than it fixed.  Use whatever version of the spell is weakest.6) Avoid Non-Core Spells: I'm sure quite a few non-core spells are perfectly balanced.  But for the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that we are limited to core.7) Nerf Problimatic Spells: Spells shouldn't cause instant death.  Spells generally shouldn't grant absolute immunity (virtual immunity to a given CR is ok).  Whenever possible, spells that do something a skill does, instead of just doing it with no chance of failure give some limited short term boost to skill or the equivalent.  Spells that are save or die take you to negative hit points.  Force cage, wall of force, etc. are subject to physical damage just like other walls.  Spells that cause save or suck below 6th level have short durations or are resistable over time.  Summoning spells don't let you summon things iwth higher CR than you have.  Shapechanging spells don't generally let you increase CON or hit points.  Divinitions require a skill check to succeed.  Anything else is up for review.  The goal is to keep similar breadth and utility, especially out of combat, while reducing the gap in utility between the spell casters and non-spellcasters from both directions.So, that's spells generally.  The Cleric however is still a bit overpowered.  So the following changes to the Cleric:1) Cleric spells per day progression starts at '0+1' rather than '1+1'.2) Clerics have a list of known spells, similar to every other class but the Wizard (for which the DM has considerable sway and influence over the availability of spells, as well as other RP constraints such as the need for books and components).  This is particularly important for the Cleric if you in any way depart from core, because otherwise the Cleric can prepare whatever he expects to need, much like as if a Wizard knew every spell.Question #1: With these changes, is it reasonable that Cleric and Wizard move from Tier 1 to Tier 2?  In my experience they seem to do the trick or would do the trick, but I don't know high level play in 3e very well at all.</blockquote>

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