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<blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 5695092" data-attributes="member: 92511"><p>This is an interesting problem...and one I think many DMs encounter from time to time.</p><p></p><p>To your own issues, as presented, I have a couple of suggestions...</p><p></p><p>1) Don't have Villain V do anything "out of the ordinary" to give the players suspiscions. Now, it sounds like that proverbial ship has already sailed.</p><p></p><p>But still, it is one thing for the players to "know" but their characters can really only "suspect" or have a gut feeling. Will they be surprised when the big "AHA" moment comes up, no, not entirely. But the "AHA, I was right!" can be just as good or satisfying (for the players) as "AHA, I didn't see that coming!" is for the DM.</p><p></p><p>2) Keep to the script. Did the <em>characters</em> suss out all of your clues already or do the players just "know/suspect"? If they really are 'ahead of the game", quite literally, then just breeze through those parts where the characters find the clues and "get" that what they "thought was the case" they now "have proof of/is fact." So, maybe A & B adventures run faster than you'd planned. Throw in a combat or two that you didn't have before. I concur adding some setting piece (like "old ruins that weren't there before) can be disruptive to the suspension of disbelief. But a cadre of guards or extra traps or a magical something-er-other in a particular spot where you didn't have them/think necessary before should not.</p><p></p><p>3) Don't "give it away on the first date", so to speak. If Villain V is to be the Big Bad, then have him in the background or a whispered "boss" or "master" that can be whined about by some captured foe or overheard between some underlings while the party recon's. Why you would/had introduced the villain before you even started adventure A, I suppose made sense to you/fit the story at the time. But if that is the case, "the evil vizier at the sultan's side", for example, then see #1.</p><p></p><p>Don't have them do anything or act in any way suspicious. Don't add in things like a scowl or glare that may/may not be noticed by the party. Don't see him slinking in the shadows talking to some raggedy looking minion in the marketplace. Make him the shining example of the perfect loyal servant...Hell, give him a shiny white fluffy bunny familiar if you have to (that's really an imp shapechanged, or some such) that way the treachery/Big Badness becomes a "Wait a minute! It's THAT guy?!"</p><p></p><p>Throw in OTHER, completely unrelated (at least to the immediate story) "suspicious" or "villainous" characters to distract the party from the REAL bad guy. This also allows you to branch off/lines up other side-adventures or major plotlines for the future. Characters can't be everywhere at once. While they take down one Big Bad, there should always be other "evil plots of someone else" unfolding. So when the party gets around to dealing with those, they are further along/tougher to defeat than when they first noticed. </p><p></p><p>4) There are times you will just get beaten. There are times the players will be able to "thwart" the best laid plot. Often, in fact. If that's the case and there is no retro-ing the storyline, then you have the right idea, just be glad you have good players...and make it tougher for them next time. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Good luck and happy gaming.</p><p>--Steel Dragons</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="steeldragons, post: 5695092, member: 92511"] This is an interesting problem...and one I think many DMs encounter from time to time. To your own issues, as presented, I have a couple of suggestions... 1) Don't have Villain V do anything "out of the ordinary" to give the players suspiscions. Now, it sounds like that proverbial ship has already sailed. But still, it is one thing for the players to "know" but their characters can really only "suspect" or have a gut feeling. Will they be surprised when the big "AHA" moment comes up, no, not entirely. But the "AHA, I was right!" can be just as good or satisfying (for the players) as "AHA, I didn't see that coming!" is for the DM. 2) Keep to the script. Did the [I]characters[/I] suss out all of your clues already or do the players just "know/suspect"? If they really are 'ahead of the game", quite literally, then just breeze through those parts where the characters find the clues and "get" that what they "thought was the case" they now "have proof of/is fact." So, maybe A & B adventures run faster than you'd planned. Throw in a combat or two that you didn't have before. I concur adding some setting piece (like "old ruins that weren't there before) can be disruptive to the suspension of disbelief. But a cadre of guards or extra traps or a magical something-er-other in a particular spot where you didn't have them/think necessary before should not. 3) Don't "give it away on the first date", so to speak. If Villain V is to be the Big Bad, then have him in the background or a whispered "boss" or "master" that can be whined about by some captured foe or overheard between some underlings while the party recon's. Why you would/had introduced the villain before you even started adventure A, I suppose made sense to you/fit the story at the time. But if that is the case, "the evil vizier at the sultan's side", for example, then see #1. Don't have them do anything or act in any way suspicious. Don't add in things like a scowl or glare that may/may not be noticed by the party. Don't see him slinking in the shadows talking to some raggedy looking minion in the marketplace. Make him the shining example of the perfect loyal servant...Hell, give him a shiny white fluffy bunny familiar if you have to (that's really an imp shapechanged, or some such) that way the treachery/Big Badness becomes a "Wait a minute! It's THAT guy?!" Throw in OTHER, completely unrelated (at least to the immediate story) "suspicious" or "villainous" characters to distract the party from the REAL bad guy. This also allows you to branch off/lines up other side-adventures or major plotlines for the future. Characters can't be everywhere at once. While they take down one Big Bad, there should always be other "evil plots of someone else" unfolding. So when the party gets around to dealing with those, they are further along/tougher to defeat than when they first noticed. 4) There are times you will just get beaten. There are times the players will be able to "thwart" the best laid plot. Often, in fact. If that's the case and there is no retro-ing the storyline, then you have the right idea, just be glad you have good players...and make it tougher for them next time. ;) Good luck and happy gaming. --Steel Dragons [/QUOTE]
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