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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Old One" data-source="post: 1572581" data-attributes="member: 83">Give 'em an a$$-whuppin'...MZ -Before I launch...let me ask a few of questions:(1) What level are they currently?(2) Are their any PCs that really "should" be leaders (ie, high charisma types - bard, paladins, clerics) or has everyone used CHA as a "dump stat"?(3) Do you pull punches on them when they play poorly, show a lack of teamwork and spend an hour of game time arguing over division of loot?  By this I mean do you "fudge" in their favor when a properly played challenge would take them out due to poor game play.Focusing on Item #3 above (and by the tone of your post I am assuming this might be the case), what I think they need is a good, old fashioned a$$-whipping.  Place them up against a LN or LE group with strong leadership, well thought out tactics and good team work and absolutely beat the tar out of them.  The catch is that this enemy doesn't want them dead...it wants them captured for whatever reason (revenge, ransom, slavery).You can then use the leader of the enemy group to scoff at their lack of team work...especially as the enemy is "ohhing and ahhing" over some of the PCs nice shiny gear as they divide it up.Things like:"With gear this powerful, you should have easily defeated us...but my superior tactics clearly won the day...let that be a lesson to you if you survive this.""When I first heard that we had to track you down, I was a bit apprehensive, but your foolish actions made our job easy.""Perhaps you should enlist in the King's militia...if you ever get out of this...you need some rudimentary lessons in tactics."Another way to do the same thing, from a different angle would be to kick the PC's collective butts, using primarily immobilizing poisons, nets or other non-lethal tactics, then have another adventuring group show and rescue them.  The saving group uses outstanding teamwork, precision coordination and good tactics to soundly whip the adversary and save the day.  If asked, the NPC leader will give the PCs some pointers on how to better work together to survive.My 2 coppers...~ Old One</blockquote>

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