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<blockquote data-quote="Scud.NZ" data-source="post: 4383643" data-attributes="member: 73097">Other editions addressed this issue with a random roll to decide the maximum distance at which a spot check can succeed. I realise this isn't quite the same thing as &quot;how far away is the ogre&quot; but at least it's guidance. 3rd Edition has a whole list of suggested dice sets to roll, for different terrains. In the case of open fields (during winter) it is 4d6x40 feet.I appreciate a lot of what you are saying in the rest of your post. I'd restate my opinion (preference?) about player choice. Why should all encounters start &quot;on the battlemap&quot;?And this is essentially where we differ in opinion. I guess a lot of people are perfectly satisfied with the &quot;leave nothing to chance, everything must be relevant&quot; philosophy that a table-top skirmish system like 4ed embraces. At least, that's my opinion. I like the better combat system of 4Ed, don't get me wrong, but I feel there are gaps that the older editions filled better. I guess house rules are necessary to combine the best of both. However, I wonder what WotC are going to do when they inevitably get around to making the products for &quot;bigger&quot; battles and the weapons therein. Even Epic Wizards do not seem to have any spell range past 20. Why should all encounters start &quot;on the battlemap&quot;?I totally agree. I'd call them circumstance modifiers. In the case of grass height I'd perhaps factor that into the distance at which I'd start the &quot;Spot&quot; Perception checks, depending on the season. This has been done in some older editions of the game.A big part of my original question is based around &quot;point of view&quot;. The PC's are wandering along, passively looking into the fields around them. The ogre is scoffing on peasant arm. He's distracted, essentially. This would lower his chance of spotting the PC's before they spot him and react, deciding to engage the ogre or not. In other situations it might be the other way round, a goblin scout spots the party without being spotted itself, so dashes off to fetch a squad of warriors to go hunt down the party later in the day.I accept that I am talking about &quot;random encounters&quot; here, for the most part. Has anyone spotted the term in any of the 4ed products released to date. I haven't. If the &quot;new&quot; philosophy precludes their inclusion in the game, I think that is a loss for players and DM's alike.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Scud.NZ, post: 4383643, member: 73097"] Other editions addressed this issue with a random roll to decide the maximum distance at which a spot check [U]can[/U] succeed. I realise this isn't quite the same thing as "how far away is the ogre" but at least it's guidance. 3rd Edition has a whole list of suggested dice sets to roll, for different terrains. In the case of open fields (during winter) it is 4d6x40 feet. I appreciate a lot of what you are saying in the rest of your post. I'd restate my opinion (preference?) about player choice. Why should all encounters start "on the battlemap"? And this is essentially where we differ in opinion. I guess a lot of people are perfectly satisfied with the "leave nothing to chance, everything must be relevant" philosophy that a table-top skirmish system like 4ed embraces. At least, that's my opinion. I like the better combat system of 4Ed, don't get me wrong, but I feel there are gaps that the older editions filled better. I guess house rules are necessary to combine the best of both. However, I wonder what WotC are going to do when they inevitably get around to making the products for "bigger" battles and the weapons therein. Even Epic Wizards do not seem to have any spell range past 20. Why should all encounters start "on the battlemap"? I totally agree. I'd call them circumstance modifiers. In the case of grass height I'd perhaps factor that into the distance at which I'd start the "Spot" Perception checks, depending on the season. This has been done in some older editions of the game. A big part of my original question is based around "point of view". The PC's are wandering along, passively looking into the fields around them. The ogre is scoffing on peasant arm. He's distracted, essentially. This would lower his chance of spotting the PC's before they spot him and react, deciding to engage the ogre or not. In other situations it might be the other way round, a goblin scout spots the party without being spotted itself, so dashes off to fetch a squad of warriors to go hunt down the party later in the day. I accept that I am talking about "random encounters" here, for the most part. Has anyone spotted the term in any of the 4ed products released to date. I haven't. If the "new" philosophy precludes their inclusion in the game, I think that is a loss for players and DM's alike. [/QUOTE]

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