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<blockquote data-quote="Scud.NZ" data-source="post: 4383753" data-attributes="member: 73097">Agreed, if you are actively looking for it. But if you've been walking for 6 hours are you that focused? If we consider a different environment altogether, the city, it has been shown that we tend to have a small zone around us where we are aware of things happening, and unless something exceptional happens (a car backfires, a gun shot) we stay focused in that zone. I'd make the case that after 6 hours of walking through farmland, no-one, hero or not, would give a damn about what's happening on the horizon.&quot;Surprise should only be possible when something is suddenly revealed within combat range.&quot;Why? If I spot a troop of goblin warriors in the far distance I am surely going to do something different [set an ambush, ride to warn the outpost without the goblins being aware that I had done so] than if I spotted them within combat range [charge, hide, negotiate]The 3rd edition DMG summed up the difference nicely. It talks about encounters where immediate interaction is possible and encounters where immediate interaction is not possible. It talks about encounters where both sides are aware of each other, and where one side has an advantage because it has not been spotted. All this seems to have been removed in 4ed, because the fundamental philosophy seems to have shifted to the game taking place on the battleboard rather than in our minds.Your example of &quot;bad old 1st edition&quot; is flawed. Not wrong, I might add, just flawed. Rotten mechanisms like that were dropped in later editions, because they were bad.&nbsp; My argument for a mechanism that allows player choice is not that simplistic. As a direct rebuttal of your example perhaps a homonculus spotted the party earlier on in the adventure from a distance, without being seen itself. The reason the players were surprised when they burst in the door was that the homonculus forewarned the necromancer, who prepared several buffs and cast darkness within the room. &quot;Hell&quot;, he thinks,&nbsp; &quot;when those intruders bust down the door, I bet they'll be surprised!&quot; Stumbling into a prepared trap does tend to throw you off a little.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Scud.NZ, post: 4383753, member: 73097"] Agreed, if you are actively looking for it. But if you've been walking for 6 hours are you that focused? If we consider a different environment altogether, the city, it has been shown that we tend to have a small zone around us where we are aware of things happening, and unless something exceptional happens (a car backfires, a gun shot) we stay focused in that zone. I'd make the case that after 6 hours of walking through farmland, no-one, hero or not, would give a damn about what's happening on the horizon. "Surprise should only be possible when something is suddenly revealed within combat range." Why? If I spot a troop of goblin warriors in the far distance I am surely going to do something different [set an ambush, ride to warn the outpost without the goblins being aware that I had done so] than if I spotted them within combat range [charge, hide, negotiate] The 3rd edition DMG summed up the difference nicely. It talks about encounters where immediate interaction is possible and encounters where immediate interaction is not possible. It talks about encounters where both sides are aware of each other, and where one side has an advantage because it has not been spotted. All this seems to have been removed in 4ed, because the fundamental philosophy seems to have shifted to the game taking place on the battleboard rather than in our minds. Your example of "bad old 1st edition" is flawed. Not wrong, I might add, just flawed. Rotten mechanisms like that were dropped in later editions, because they were bad. My argument for a mechanism that allows player choice is not that simplistic. As a direct rebuttal of your example perhaps a homonculus spotted the party earlier on in the adventure from a distance, without being seen itself. The reason the players were surprised when they burst in the door was that the homonculus forewarned the necromancer, who prepared several buffs and cast darkness within the room. "Hell", he thinks, "when those intruders bust down the door, I bet [U]they'll[/U] be surprised!" Stumbling into a prepared trap does tend to throw you off a little. [/QUOTE]

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