HELP Suggestion Spell

[mojoutd]

Okay, 3 guys are fighting a Wererat. After about 7 rounds of Combat, where in that time,
they have fought him offensively, heavily, and done severe damage to him,

The party enchanter, casts Suggestion on him, and says, "you look hurt, why don't you take a rest and sleep, and we'll watch you..."

I read the spell over and over, to see if that would be doable, considering, the fact, that they had been pretty much fighting him, hitting him with magic missles, killing his rat pets... hurting him sereverly.

I make all my roles in front of them. I was about 2 points from an actual save... And what i thought was, since that he was in COMBAT with them, i could have given him the two points, to make the save, however, i didn't...


I made the decision, that he did go to sleep. Essentially, i was burned about it for a little afterwards. I asked a fellow DM and he felt, that Suggestion was ether a PRE-Combat, or a post Combat Spell, that if they had engaged in the middle of combat, it would NOT have
worked.....


As A DM.I then issued a statement online, about using the spell, and i stated, that the players got lucky, but that would NOT happen again, if they had been fighting with him.

The player that cast the spell, issued this BACK.


*******
I disagree. There is no such thing as a pre-combat or a post-combat spell
in dnd. Spells may be cast at any time, though some spells do have long
casting times to make them unfeasible for use during combat. Suggestion has
a casting time of 1 standard action, meaning the spell can be cast and
another action be started within a time period of 6 seconds. To look at a
spell similar to suggestion, look at dominate person, a 5th level
enchantment spell. Suggestion basically gives you a one command dominate,
at the end of which the subject is free to do as it chooses. Minus the
telepathic link, of course.
*******

SO, i need suggestions and ideas for this....I personally don't believe that Suggestion would have worked, considering they'd been slinging swords for 15 minutes.

 

[Shayuri]

I think this probably belongs in the Rules forum, but I'll toss in.

There's nothing in the spell description of Suggestion that says it only works outside of combat. Unlike Charm Person (which prescribes a saving throw bonus for those charmed during combat) or Hypnosis, Suggestion -IS- designed to be in an Enchanter's "battle reporatoire."

Now, I'm not sure I'd really buy going to sleep as a viable suggestion, since going to sleep isn't something people usually do voluntarily. But that's another question entirely.

 

[mojoutd]

I think this probably belongs in the Rules forum, but I'll toss in.

There's nothing in the spell description of Suggestion that says it only works outside of combat. Unlike Charm Person (which prescribes a saving throw bonus for those charmed during combat) or Hypnosis, Suggestion -IS- designed to be in an Enchanter's "battle reporatoire."

Now, I'm not sure I'd really buy going to sleep as a viable suggestion, since going to sleep isn't something people usually do voluntarily. But that's another question entirely.

ER...So i'm still stuck... with this. What he did was legal to you, acceptable, after five round s of Combat? which of course, you know, they immediately went over and Coup De graced him? I mean, it seems kind of Cheap to me.

Would someone knowingly go to sleep, willingly, after seeing 4 of his pets killed, after fighting, extensively in battle?


I believe the spell states, that it must be a connected action. The example used., is a Dragon, who and the example is., "We'll not take your treasure, we want to go and raid another dragon's horde with your help."

This was inb the middle of combat. I REALLLY need some help here.

Dominate is a completely differenbt spell. you take control of someone completely. Suggestion, is just that, a suggestion. Going to sleep in the middle of combat, it stupid!!!

 

[mojoutd]

I think this probably belongs in the Rules forum, but I'll toss in.

There's nothing in the spell description of Suggestion that says it only works outside of combat. Unlike Charm Person (which prescribes a saving throw bonus for those charmed during combat) or Hypnosis, Suggestion -IS- designed to be in an Enchanter's "battle reporatoire."

Now, I'm not sure I'd really buy going to sleep as a viable suggestion, since going to sleep isn't something people usually do voluntarily. But that's another question entirely.

ER...So i'm still stuck... with this. What he did was legal to you, acceptable, after five round s of Combat? which of course, you know, they immediately went over and Coup De graced him? I mean, it seems kind of Cheap to me.


Would someone knowingly go to sleep, willingly, after seeing 4 of his pets killed, after fighting, extensively in battle?


I believe the spell states, that it must be a connected action. The example used., is a Dragon, who and the example is., "We'll not take your treasure, we want to go and raid another dragon's horde with your help."

This was inb the middle of combat. I REALLLY need some help here.

Dominate is a completely differenbt spell. you take control of someone completely. Suggestion, is just that, a suggestion. Going to sleep in the middle of combat, it stupid!!!


What's also to prevent them from doing this over and over, when they can't beat a villian?

Go to sleep, and we'll watch you BS...

 

[Shayuri]

Dude, I don't see the problem. What if he'd Fireballed him and killed him? Same level spell, right?

It's all about expenditure of resources. That's pretty much the essence of D&D combat.

Now. Having said that, if you'll read my post, I did note that the -specific usage- of Suggestion to put someone into a helpless state is iffy, and -that- is what I would suggest focusing on. Not the blanket use of Suggestion in combat, but rather the specific use of Suggestion to render a foe helpless and vulnerable to coup de grace.

It's worth pointing out that there's a clause in Suggestion regarding the "reasonableness" of the command. A command to commit suicide, for example, will not be obeyed. Similarly, I would find it reasonable to rule that a Suggestion to go to sleep in the middle of a pitched fight against worthy adversaries would probably be considered tantamount to suicide and thus also ignored.

On the other hand, a Suggestion to "drop your sword and surrender, we are far too strong," or "flee before our might" would be reasonable within the definitions of the spell, and would be obeyed if the Will save was failed. You might also use Suggestion to force or rule out targets, or even get evil creatures to quarrel among each other (if they were already predisposed not to trust each other, thus making Suggestions to fight seem reasonable).

In short, your claim that there's something wrong with a character using a 3rd level spell to take out an enemy after -just five rounds- isn't garnering a lot of sympathy. Five rounds is actually quite a bit of time in D&D combats. However, I do believe that your player could be using the spell outside of its intended power range. For putting foes to sleep, I suggest Deep Slumber (also 3rd level, as I recall). For rendering them helpless and paralyzed, try Hold Person. It's reasonable to say that those two effects, captured by other spells, represent effects outside of Suggestion's ability to induce.