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Message: <blockquote data-quote="holomachamp" data-source="post: 511181" data-attributes="member: 5210">In my campaign of 8 players, challenging them in a battle has gotten difficult. either i underestimate and they blow through it or i over estimate and they get decimated. the CR concept does not work (probably because we have several powergamers in the group) anyways here is the group of eight1 14th lvl red wizard enchanter ( who can also effect undead with enchantment)2.) 14th lvl barbarian/tempest totally munchinized3.)13th lvl fighter/shadow dancer/ninja with shurikens powergamed4.) 11 lvl drow arcane archer5.) 13th lvl psion6.) 13th lvl cleric7.)12th lvl druid (doesn't use spells always wildshapes8.)13 lvl rouge/chosen of lloththe problem is really with the first three, the wiz's DCs are insane(30+), the barbarian mows through almost anything(90+ damage a round), and the ninja can hide in plain sight and is almost undetectable.i tossed a party of 6 average npc's of thier lvl against them and they hardly broke a sweat. to neutralize the wiz i can string a bunch of battles together, but the other 7 just fill in.</blockquote>