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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 512999" data-attributes="member: 4937">Ok, I'll chime in with my restatement of all the good advice you are recieving.There is no such thing as an unstoppable PC.  There is only such a thing as a DM that feels uncomfortable challenging a PC.YOU ARE IN CHARGE OF THE GAME. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />This party is probably capable of regularly handling CR 15-17 creatures.In general, you should not just take a single CR 17 creature out of the book and expect it to be a good challenge.   Just as your party has power gamed, you as a DM are going to need to power game back.1) Doubling the number of monsters only add +2 to the CR (at most).   In reality though, 4 well played CR 13 monsters are probably a better challange than 1 CR 17 monster - because the party will not be able to concentrate its force.2) Against a large party like that, roll separate initiatives for each monster.  If you only roll a single initiative for all foes, your party will tend to win initiative too often.3) Doubling or tripling a creatures HD is an effective way to add alot of combat power without adding alot of CR.   So 4 triple HD CR10 creatures (probably with a size increase) are probably more of a challenge than a single CR 17 monster.4) Remember to give the monster the advantages of fighting on its home turf.   Prepared defences like pit traps, glyphs of warding, forbiddance, desecrate, and so forth will up the challenge of a monster considerably.5) Templates: Learn to love them and use them.  Many are fairly undercosted when chosen well.  Give them a steady diet of awakened creatures, ghost creatures, multiheaded creatures, spirit creatures, elemental creatures, shadow creatures, skeletal creatures, anarchic, axiomatic and fiendish creatures and so forth.   If you haven't tried advanced axiomatic carrion crawlers, advanced axiomatic fire elemental dire lions, advanced awakened spirt dire wolves, advanced multiheaded trolls, fiendish skeletal balrogs, shadow creature white dragons, advanced fiendish chokers rouges, and the like, then you haven't even scratched the surface of what is possible.6) Don't underestimate the power of confusion.  An experienced party is going to know all the appropriate responces to any threat they can understand.  Alter the appearance of creatures.  Create new creatures with surprising abilities.  Vary creatures when necessary.7) In general, well played PC's will make mincemeat of anything in an arena environment.   Don't give them nice simple terrain to fight in.  Give uneven floors that provoke balance checks.  Give them fights that occur on narrow ledges.  Give them fights that occur in, near, or over water/acid/magma.  Give them fights against creatures who have cover and barriers between them and the PC's.  Give them fights in thick underbrush (concealment penalties, movement penalties, balance penalties).  Give them fights in confined spaces (can't swing a two handed axe in a 3' diamater tunnel).   Give them running fights in the darkness against foes with incredible powers of evasion (like incorporal foes).   Give them fights in vast open spaces against mounted opponents with very high mobility and the ability to withstand a fireball and trade missile fire with the PC's if necessary.  Don't underestimate the power of fear.  If you make the PC's fear you, they will be intimidated into inaction even against foes they could otherwise take.8) Give a creature a few levels in a PC class and some minor magic items which are of little use to the PC's.  Don't forget when giving PC classes to a creature to give it a few points for a point buy to increase its attributes above the average.  (Think 4th level barbarian half-dragon minotaurs are bad now, give them a 15 point buy above average stats now, masterwork equipment, and buff them with some simple magic items.   Throw in a half red dragon troll 7th level cleric with a 20 point buy, and you've a challenge worthy of anyone.)9) Min/Max the hell out of your NPC's.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.  Take stats off of smack down threads.  Have the PC's face teams of smackdown gladiators, not mere cannon fodder.   If the NPC's common thugs are 8th level fighters in masterwork platemail min maxed with polearms (combat reflexes, improved trip, ect.) or masterwork mighty longbows (rapid shot, point blank shot, precise shot, etc.) the PC's are going to take notice after awhile.10) If all else fails, take away the PC's abilities.  Take them to other planes where teleportation/scrying/fire spells/magic items/flight/'what ever it is that is bugging you' don't work or don't work as well.There is no such thing as unstoppable PC's.</blockquote>

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