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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6301061" data-attributes="member: 4937">While this was certainly true in the 3rd through 13th centuries, by the 17th century it is much less true.  Certainly by the 17th century, the Middle East was pretty far from 'significantly ahead in certain sciences'.  The greatest age of Middle Eastern science was over by the 13th century.  The greatest age of far eastern science was pretty much over by the 14th century.   By the 15th century, the far east had actually regressed do to the reactionary nature of the early Ming dynasty and general social and economic upheaval of late Ming.  And Japan had closed its doors to the world.  Back in the 11th century Chinese engineering was a couple centuries ahead of European.  By the 17th century it was a century or more behind, and from that point Chinese progress is mostly spurred by contact with the west.  Had China managed to contact the West a century or two earlier, the revolution in knowledge might have flowed the other way and it could have well jump started Chinese inventiveness in much the same way the West's exploration period did.  But it didn't happen.  In craftsmanship, the east continued to excel the west in most areas in the 17th century, but the west was rapidly catching up.  But two areas the west had long excelled the east though was stonework and glass - spurred by the Cathedral building craze.  By the 17th century, they are also outdoing the east in metal casting.  But in textiles and ceramics the east is still well ahead, and in woodworking and carpentry there is still an eastern advantage.  In steel and weapon work its a bit more debatable - comparing masterwork katanas to ordinary quality European swords isn't an entirely fair comparison.    Throughout the world though their were anachronisms where someone had invented something and then it had been ignored and eventually forgotten.  The Greeks were playing with steam engines and differential gearing at their college on Rhodes in 300 BC - Europe wouldn't rediscover all that for nearly 2000 years.  The Chinese had complex clocks in 200 CE, but by the time Europeans presented clocks as gifts to the Chinese the Chinese themselves had not only forgotten how to make such objects, they had forgotten they ever could make such objects.  There are certainly a lot of things that could have happened, but not all of them are eastern and I think it would be a mistake to make the east a focus of esoteric things.</blockquote>

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