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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 2355282" data-attributes="member: 5777">I was just going to pm you, but I figured I would just say something here instead.Again with the other thread references, even though they are out of place here. There were a lot of overly hostile people there who didnt like anything that they said questioned. One guy said, 'compare to X' and I did, but the comparison didnt turn out the way he liked so he was upset. I understand if you were upset with me saying that I didnt want to use your suggestion, but you have to understand, your suggestion basically said to throw away the entire thing and make something completely different. While that might be a good 'final' suggestion once everything else is considered it doesnt make much for a 'first' suggestion.I've dropped the issue here several times over, but people keep picking it up. I am not sure how much more apparent that can be other than, 'It depends on your dm, campaign, and character overall'. If people say, 'well, I wouldnt use it' then that falls under dm or character, done.If, however, they want to say they are following the raw when they are not I'll try to show them where they are messing up.In this case, nothing in the vop description says that they cannot get the benefit of the spell nor can they get them somehow. To say otherwise they must provide some sort of proof, which has not been done. Also, nothing in the wealth guidelines says that they start with a pile of cash X high and must divy it out to vendors to get their stuff, that is just foolish, and completely against how things actually work in the game (did you have to pay the guy for the gift he gave you? or that item you got off of the dead monsters body? or the treasure horde? or this? or that?)So really, I have kept on asking them to show rules support but all they can do is attack. I'd rather be defensive than attack back, but apparently people still dont feel like they can defend their positions enough to actually back them, unfortunate.I like a good debate, but most of what is going on here is 'not' a debate. We have people doing things like making up brand new rules (perfect example, Rystil Arden and his, 'The VoP character has exactly the resources of a level 3 character to purchase stuff.' nonsense) or reading way too much into something (vop characters cant 'somehow' get the bonuses? show me the rule).If people want to debate then debate, if you want to just attack, as people are doing here, then take it somewhere else. Lots of things are campaign dependent, but bringing those into a rules forum discussion (more than whatever the original poster asks for at least) is just out of place. If you feel that you have a strong standing then show it! If someone else disagrees with your position then explain. That is how these things work. Too many overly aggressive people on this thread though. Just because your churches dont give out favors in your game does not mean it isnt true in 'other' games.That particular 'discussion' was over even before it started. I find it crazy that a couple of people brought their pile of houserules in and claimed they were rules, but whatever. On this thread I wont talk anymore about the vop inherant bonuses. It should have been over when bront here said that his dm allowed it but some people just wouldnt let it die.Anyway.Over the course of this discussion I have lost what sources you are allowed to draw from bront ;/ I am sorry. I believe you said wotc books only, but did you mean 3.0 and 3.5? (some things were not converted, which doesnt necissarily mean that they arent able to be used).Still though, in every high level party someone should have the Standard of Heroism (out of complete warrior, page 136). At your level the bonuses arent huge, but being morale bonuses you might not have gotten them elsewhere.Also for you, a Skin of the Troll (out of the xph) might be a good thing, or possibly one of the other skins. (skin of the troll is 5hp back every minute, which isnt very fast at your level, but it is pretty consistant and any longish delay between encounters means you will be pretty stocked up without the need for much healing magic, and it tends to be much better than the ring of regen)If your dm allows extra progression of monks unarmed damage somehow (the epic rules say no, so probably not) there is monks belt and the Gauntlet of the Talon (just translate it to whichever diety is most fitting in your game). Together they would give you a +10 to your level for some monkish abilities and change your damage to slashing. This is really impressive at preepic levels, see what the dm has to say about them in epic levels.There are a ton of little items that I guess you could pretty much get all of <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Personally, I'd ask the dm about an item to increase SR and an item to increase the numer of uses of dim door.Oh yeah, ring of spell turning (or the epic equivalent) can be very good, if your dm is playing with psionics in his game <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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