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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 7343993" data-attributes="member: 58197">It can be good to allow some debate on a rules question, but when you make a final ruling, be clear that it's final. Do not get drawn into arguments after that. When the players start to argue, just say "I've made my ruling. That's how it is. Move on." And stick to that. Do not justify, explain, or engage.As far as min-maxing goes, some of the players in my group have the same tendency to crank their builds to the max. The way I handle it when DMing:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lots of weak monsters that are easy prey for their optimized selves. Let them feel badass.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Groan loudly about how my monsters can't lay a finger on them. Let them feel like they're putting one over on me.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">When I feel they've been sufficiently pampered, throw them into a jacked-up encounter that puts them in terror for their lives. CR guidelines out the window. More monsters. Bigger monsters. Spellcasting monsters. Monsters with weird special powers that are nowhere to be found in the books. Traps and ambushes and environmental hazards. Make them earn their victory with blood and sweat and pain.</li> </ul>I generally find this leaves the players all feeling tough and satisfied. And as far as my enjoyment goes... well, the look on players' faces when the lich says "Die" and the cleric falls over dead without a saving throw*, that just never gets old. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />All that said, some groups are beyond fixing. If they keep whining and arguing and making your life hell, there's no shame in saying, "Sorry, guys. I'm not having any fun with this. Peace out." Hang up the screen and go back to playing. If you really have the itch to DM, go in search of another group, or find some folks and teach them how to play. Life's too short for bad gaming.[SIZE=-2]*Totally by-the-book; power word kill is on the standard lich spell list. I made sure to let them find a resurrection item before the combat, and I targeted the cleric because his player wasn't there that night, so he wouldn't have to sit out. The trick is to set up your safety net without letting the players realize that's what you're doing.[/SIZE]</blockquote>

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