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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Harzel" data-source="post: 7344120" data-attributes="member: 6857506">TBH, it sounds like the cleric player has issues that cannot be addressed within a game of D&D, and perhaps not even in a conversation about the game either.  That said, a few thoughts:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">You said that your players have DM'ed.  Have they DM'ed a 5e game?  Have they played 5e before?  Some of their expectations (stats, loot, availability of magic items) sound a bit 3.5-ish.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Did you play in any of the campaigns that they ran?  Did they allow the players to pull lots of shenanigans?  Did they run Monty Haul games?  Were the NPCs in their games totally compliant with PC demands?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Before talking with them any more about your reaction and desires for the game (and before putting energy into 'enforcing' any particular type of game), maybe you could delve into what they want the game to be like.  And get away from discussing particular rules or character builds because that is more a how instead of what.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Explicitly make the point that the challenge level of the game can be set independently from PC stats and quantity of magic items.  As DMs, they should understand this, but it might be useful to make sure that they understand that you understand this.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ask them straight up what kind / level of challenge they want their characters to face.  Do they really want to curbstomp every opponent?  Are they ok with mission failure, but just don't want their characters to die?  Do they care about a living breathing world, or do they just want to kill monsters and take their stuff?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You might want to think a bit in advance about what you will do if they say they want uber stats and lots of magic items and they still want challenging encounters.  This is outside the 5e box, so it will be (possibly a lot) more work for you.  You're within your rights to decline that opportunity.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If your players will not engage in the what-kind-of-game discussion, then I suggest you find a way to wrap up your campaign gracefully and pursue other options - maybe a new campaign with new ground rules and a new set of players (which might include your current players if they are willing to buy in, but I would definitely find at least a couple of other new players).</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If you want to expand your thinking about how people derive enjoyment from the game, read this. <a href="http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/" target="_blank">http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/</a> (And if you are interested, here is part 2: <a href="http://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-2-getting-engaged/" target="_blank">http://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-2-getting-engaged/</a>)  At this point, you might not want to go down the rat hole of analyzing yourself and your players thoroughly within this framework; it is enough to realize that different people want different things from the game and that is to be expected and that it is usually satisfactory if everyone (including the DM) gets stuff that lights them up some of the time.</li> </ol></blockquote>

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