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Message: <blockquote data-quote="i2amsocial" data-source="post: 6549671" data-attributes="member: 6703364">I just don't have the capacity for this kind of detail, can folks give me your thoughts on this. Be warned it is quite lengthy.Would you mind a digression into the theory behind Initiate of Nature's "rebuke/command" powers over animals and plants?  I had some thoughts on that, that Controlling a subject (an animal, say) can be done in one of several ways.  One can blank out the subject's mind and turn it into a mindless automaton - like a golem, but alive.  But this would be profoundly disrespectful to do to an animal, from a druid's perspective anyway.  One can alternatively leave the mind entirely intact, but dominate the actions (like "Dominate Person").  But this is very cruel - the subject might dearly want to do X and yet find itself horrifyingly unable to resist doing Y.Neither of these seems an appropriate model for what a druid should be doing to animals.  What Initiate of Nature actually does requires a little explanation of how an animal's mind works (this is a theory expounded to (User Name Removed) by the High Forest druids).  At the very core of a natural living being is a spark of life, a great motive force that impels the creature to be, to realize its potential as a [dolphin/hawk/banana slug/whatever].  Someone familiar with planar lore, as (User Name Removed) is, would understand this to be the trace of the positive energy plane.  Around this engine of life is a set of instincts that channel this driving force into behaviors - instincts for individual survival and procreation act as "transmission belts" that harness the motive power to generate behaviors for fight/flee, hunt-for-food, seek-mates, etc.  (The terms "engine" and "transmission belt" are coming from me, not the High Forest druids, of course.)  These instincts bear the imprint of the nature deities, and are meant to promote the interests of the animal, its species, and nature most broadly.  But there is a recognition that a learned druid or nature cleric might, at a very local level, have a better understanding of what the interests of nature require than is reflected in these "off-the-shelf" instinct packages, and so they are granted the privilege of altering those instincts.(*)The space in between the motive force and the instincts is the precise point where Initiate of Nature operates - where Silvanus "touches His finger".  The druid that establishes control over an animal can override its regular instincts, and channel its motive power down different paths.  For example, a mouse's instinct for personal preservation would normally lead it to flee a snake.  But a druid controlling a mouse can shut off that instinct and replace it with an instinct for distracting the snake to lead it away from the druid, in which case the mouse will engage in behaviors to do just that, such as dancing around the snake.  The instinct has been overwritten - the mouse no longer has a deathly fear of the snake, and is not traumatized by being forced to come into close quarters with it.(*) That's the slightly pious theory.  In practice, the distinction between "interests of nature" and "interests of the druid" is not always perfectly observed...So far, so good, ?I've read the rulebooks and campaign settings, but only a couple of the Faerun-based novels, so I'm always cautious about canon conflicts because there is a lot that I don't know.  Also, some DMs have (very specific) ideas about how magic works, the afterlife, etc., and I want to be respectful of that too.Anyway - so, Initiate of Nature allows the druid to tamper with an animal's instincts, effectively reprogramming it.  It isn't the only way to do so - for example, consider the use of a simple SNA to summon two wolves to help fight a thoqqua.  Two reprogramming happen automatically: the instinct not to bite anything that burns you is deactivated, and the general "attack" behavior is activated on the thoqqua (and, in wolves, "attack" is a complex behavior with sub-instincts - so, in this case, the two wolves will try to flank the thoqqua, trip it, etc.).  Initiate of Nature should allow that level of reprogramming, and much more - the only limit, really, is the sensory and mental capacity of the animal.  But that's actually a rather significant limit.  You can program a dog to bark as many times as you knock ("knock, knock" - "woof, woof"); you can't program a dog to derive square roots.Both a bat and a hyena have INT of 2, making them relatively smart for animals (a toad, by contrast, has INT 1).  The hyenas, however, have the advantage of being pre-programmed for hierarchical pack behavior, so it is relatively simple to have them accept (Player Name Removed) as unquestionable alpha male, and have that trigger appropriate sub-instincts (wanting (User Name Removed) approval, coming to him with problems, etc.).The bats, while social creatures, live in a colony and not a hierarchical pack, so they don't have this handy instinct built in.  Also, regardless of RAW, they just aren't as smart as hyenas.Here are some reprogramming I'd like to do on the animals - please let me know if these are okay:Bats (some rudimentary behaviors)"Indicate" - If they see a creature that "looks" funny on account of visual cues being different from what Blindsense shows, they do a dance over it.  (A mating dance, as it happens - much easier to re-purpose an existing behavioral program than develop a new one.)  This picks up hiding, invisibility, blur, displacement, mirror image (the bats will dance over the image that matches up with Blindsense) and the like, though there is no way to tell what the bats are reacting to - i.e., if there's a blurred figure they are dancing over, maybe it is someone with blur and maybe it is a blurry illusion.  If I could figure out a way to make the bats indicate what type of "funny-looking" they are reacting to, he would definitely program them to do it, but their mental capacity only stretches so far.  Also, if there is more than one creature giving off these funny signals, the bats will (randomly, i.e. per DM's choice) either spread out to each indicate a creature, or cluster around one creature (usually but not always the one closest to me) - again, if I could fine tune their behavior he would, but so far he hasn't managed to."Patrol" - Flit around a designated area, "Indicate" appropriate creatures that appear in the area, and, if (User Name Removed) isn't already on-scene, find him and flap in his face until he wakes up and comes to investigate, whereupon the bat does the "Indicate" thing again."Scatter" - When the appropriate command word is uttered, instantly scatter up and out for a few moments, then resume prior activity.  (If they are Indicating a hiding target, and the party wizard wants to drop a fireball on that position, the wizard can yell the command before firing and this "Scatter" instinct preserves the bats... ;P)Hyenas (a wider variety of behaviors, but well within what a trained dog could do)"Defend" - What it sounds like.  Mainly used to get them to protect (User Name Removed) and intercept enemies coming after her."Track" - Again, pretty intuitive.  Smell a parchment, pick up the scent of someone who touched it, and track that person by scent."Attack" - Obvious.  Includes chasing a fleeing foe.  (Still deciding whether (User Name Removed) has trained them to use sub-dual as an option - for roleplaying purposes I might want them to kill a foe that (User Name Removed) wants to keep alive.  Mark that for further thought...)"Point" - Indicate a creature or object by looking in its direction and angling the ears to reflect distance (ears fully laid-back: target is within 5' of the hyena; ears fully perked-forward: target is 60' or more away).  Useful with Scent, to indicate invisible targets.  "Point" can also be triggered on an ad hoc basis - e.g., in a nomad camp, a command to "Point" will make the hyenas indicate anyone they haven't already grown accustomed to, such as the unseen ninja that has crept into the tribe's encampment..."Patrol" - Patrol an area silently, notify of intruders by barking and "Pointing" at the intruder.In addition, there are some simple housekeeping behaviors that probably don't merit much detail - e.g., when to eat, where to defecate, etc.Thought, Contradictions, Opinions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for whatever help you can give to me.</blockquote>

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