Help with KotS Scenario

[pukunui]

Hi everyone,

I'm running my group through KotS at the moment and I've found myself in a bit of a dilemma. There are 5 PCs in the group (human archer ranger, dragonborn paladin, elf cleric, minotaur fighter, eladrin wizard). They got through the kobold ambushes ok, as well as the burial site ... but they messed up the kobold lair and I'm not really sure how to proceed from here (we had to leave things hanging at the end of the last session).

Essentially, the ranger scouted ahead and saw the kobolds out in front of the waterfall (I had the minions fishing and the others guarding the entrance to the lair). He wasn't spotted and went back to report his findings to the rest of the group. The cleric suggested they climb the cliff and attack the kobolds at range from the top of the waterfall. Seemed like an ok plan. I had to improvise a bit but I let them trek to the south, climb the cliff, then trek back up to the waterfall. Unfortunately, even with the noise from the falls and the surrounding foliage, the kobolds spotted the PCs ... and I figured that the kobolds weren't just going to stand there and let these enemies kill them from above. I figured the obvious thing for them to do would be to retreat into the relative safety of the lair and wait to see if the enemies followed.

I've also discovered that the kobolds, even the minions, pack a mean punch in this edition. They've got substantial attack modifiers and do quite a bit of damage, so the players have all gotten quite scared of them ... so they were all a bit too scared to go towards the edge of the cliff (especially after two of the minions got lucky and managed to hit the cleric, who was standing at the edge of the cliff, with their javelins, despite the range and cover and what-have-you). This meant that the kobolds were able to escape into their lair, which wasn't really what the players were expecting.

They all kind of hesitated and dithered around for a bit (and the encounter lost any potential momentum it might have had) before deciding to climb back down the cliff. And the minotaur player decided to be crazy and try some sort of Tarzan thing by swinging down on the rope rather than climbing but he failed badly and hurt himself falling (falling is really painful in this edition!). But rather than chase after the kobolds, they decided to search around outside (paying particular attention to the ancient stone circle) and then take a 5 minute rest to get their encounter powers back.

Eventually they decided to venture through the waterfall. They found the kobolds ready and waiting for them, but instead of attacking, I just had them yell at the PCs to leave them alone. They yelled back that the kobolds should stop attacking the village and they wanted to know why they were doing it. I had one of the dragonshields yell back that Irontooth was telling them to do it before having the wyrmpriest shout "Enough! Attack them!"

So the minions poured forth and were all slaughtered but the PCs left the cave and went back outside. I had also swapped out a few minions for a needlefang drake swarm (the "Oh ! Get 'em off me!" monster) ... I mean, come on! This is a kobold lair and it hasn't got a single trap in it! What kind of kobolds are these?! I know the swarm isn't really a trap, but I had it act as the "guard dog". Anyway, it seriously savaged the minotaur fighter and started to go to work on some of the others, but they eventually managed to kill it.

Now they've decided to run away ... and this is where we had to end. I told them that the remaining kobolds were going to give chase, but I'm not entirely sure what should happen next.

Should I have all the remaining kobolds chase after them as well as Irontooth? Should I have all the remaining bad guys just hang out in the lair waiting for the PCs to come back? Should I have them abandon the lair and go to the keep? I can see the wyrmpriest being a total fanatic and urging the remaining kobolds into a suicidal charge, but what about Irontooth (incidentally, I also swapped out some kobolds for two goblin warriors so that Irontooth has some bodyguards of his own kind ...)? Would he just hang out and wait for some potential assassins to come back? Would he leave the relative safety of the lair to pursue them? Would he risk Kalarel's wrath by returning to the keep to report that some upstart adventurers have slaughtered the kobolds? Would he gather his remaining forces, follow the PCs at a distance, and attack them when they're vulnerable? Or what?

I welcome any and all suggestions from my fellow DMs on how to proceed from here. Please help me tidy up this mess!

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Jonathan

 

[Fakegoatee]

Here's a thought:

The PCs get away, but Irontooth sends word to Kalarel of what's going on.

Meanwhile, the kobolds will absolutely cover their lair with traps. If the PCs come back to the layer, they should expect enough traps (along with the remaining monsters) to make it a 6th level encounter. (Maybe Irontooth made them remove the traps for his convenience, but now the Wyrmpriest has convinced him they're necessary for survival.)

Of course, not all the kobolds were in the lair when the PCs raided it. Some were out performing other koboldish duties. Irontooth sends some to set up the Wagon Ambush encounter from Dungeon 155, hoping to catch the PCs on their way back to the lair.

If the PCs go to Winterhaven, take an extended rest, and then head back to the lair, they'll hit the Wagon Ambush outside town and then they'll have the kobold lair encounter with a bunch of traps.

If they go to Winterhaven and take an extended rest, but they seem unclear on how to proceed, let them explore Winterhaven and talk to people there a little while, then hit them with the Interlude encounter. Their indecision has given Kalarel time to respond to the news from Irontooth. He has Ninaran perform the ritual to animate the graveyard dead, tells Irontooth to move the ambush so that it'll catch the PCs on the way to the graveyard, and (possibly) sends Maw and 18 rotters from the Keep as reinforcements (per the "Graveyard Exterior" encounter in Dungeon 155).

(I don't think putting the Interlude encounter this early will disrupt the plot, but you may want to make some adjustments to what the notes from Kalarel that Ninaran and Irontooth possess say. Also, in the unlikely event that the party is behind on XP, you can add Slaver encounter from Dungeon 155 to where the Interlude used to be.)

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I would have the kobolds mount a short pursuit but leave some to fortify the lair. Maybe add a second hidden exit, Traps inside the waterfall and covered fire platforms that allow attacks from cover on to the PC's.

It would probably make the lair too tough for the PC's on their own but PCs in 4e have the capacity to take some hits and recognise that the situation is hopeless and then come up with an alternative plan.

This could be enlist the village militia to help them assault the kobold lair (a possible skill challange), or at least persuade the militia to blockade the kobold lair to prevent them from interfering with trade (a less difficult skill challange since there is little chance that villagers would die), hire people themselves (minions of their own) or ignore the kobolds and go straight for the Keep.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

You don't have that big of a mess here. You (narrowly) avoided the real disaster of having the PCs fight three encounters' worth of monsters, the outside force and both inside waves, at the same time. After slaughtering the minions, the PCs were probably wise to retreat, leaving only two encounters' worth.

Since Irontooth's job is to take out adventurers who might interfere, I would definitely have at least half of the remaining forces pursue the PCs. I don't see Irontooth retreating to the keep and admitting he allowed five adventurers to massacre his forces, so plan for him to make a last stand at the cave, perhaps fortified by additional traps. If the PCs don't seem likely to return to the cave, Irontooth can take all of his remaining henchmen on a desperate strike against the PCs. Depending on the outcome of the initial pursuit of the PCs, you could have Irontooth follow immediately afterwards, as a second wave of pursuers.

It's important not just to consider what Irontooth would do, but also how you want the adventure to unfold. For example, having the forces outside the cave retreat into the cave was realistic, but put you in the position of the PCs wandering into certain death if they had all attacked at once. In 20/20 hindsight, having the outside forces attack the PCs, perhaps coming up their own route to the cliffs above the waterfall, would have been the most expedient way to preserve the following encounters as written. As another example, having the kobolds not give chase at all risks killing the momentum of the adventure entirely.

 

[Rechan]

There are several avenues to explore here.

1) The PCs know about Irontooth, and Irontooth knows they know about him. He could get paranoid. Since the PCs flee, he could give chase, and when they get back to Winterhaven, he mounts an assault. Karalel is close to completing his plan after all, and the town is doomed anyways. Que siege.

2) Irontooth sends a strike force to hunt down the PCs. You could use the Wagon Ambush, or you could use your own (a slyblade, a skirmisher or two, and some minions) who sneak into the town and attack the PCs. Think ninja bursting through the windows.

3) Irontooth traps the lair, and actually has his forces move out. They take up watchful positions, allow the PCs to push into the lair - and then come in behind. However, you might want to reduce the number of kobolds, so that this isn't Certain Death. Allow the PCs to stall the Second or Third Wave of monsters, so that they can get a breather, regroup, and possibly use the trap/lair's layout against the invaders.

4) Let the PCs take the upper hand. Collapse the Kobold Lair by flooding it with the river. It's a drastic measure, but I just like the idea of blowing a hole in the roof of the lair, the river rushing in, the kobolds/Irontooth run out, and the PCs proceed to pepper them from above.

 

[pukunui]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the responses so far! There are some good ideas in there definitely. I'll try to address some things in more detail when I have a chance. I just wanted to acknowledge that I've read your responses and appreciate them!

Cheers,
Jonathan

 

[pukunui]

OK, I've now got some time to answer you guys properly.

Firstly, though, I'll just run through what's left of the bad guys (keep in mind that I swapped out quite a few minions, a dragonshield, and a skirmisher for some other things like the needlefang drake swarm).

So what I've got left is:
Irontooth
2x goblin warriors
1x dragonshield
1x slinger
3x skirmishers
1x wyrmpriest
1x fire beetle


All right, so ...

I like the idea of putting a lot of traps into the kobold lair. I'm not worried about adding some extra XP into the encounter because I'm planning on cutting out the kruthik lair and possibly a few other things, so I'll need to make up for it somehow. The wagon ambush could be good, although I think my players might be getting sick of kobolds ambushing them now that they've had it happen to them twice ... Anyway, I was quite shocked that there weren't any traps in the lair to begin with, considering that kobolds are all about traps! So that's a cool idea.

I also like the idea of flooding the lair (it's not something I'd want to out-and-out tell my players is an option, but if they think of it, I'll certainly let them try ... I don't know how they'd do it, though).

And, of course, if the PCs do escape and return, I can add more kobolds (ones that were out on patrol, perhaps).

I would like them to fight Irontooth, though, so if they do decide not to return to the lair, then I'll have him come looking for them. I'm not sure how I'll do it but the "ninja through the inn window" thing is always a good one.

I also like the idea of having the lair trapped but having all the kobolds waiting outside and then coming in so that the PCs are trapped instead. That's a good one too.

In hindsight, yes, I probably should have had the outside kobolds climb the cliff to attack the PCs (although I'm sure at least one of them would've gone inside to warn the others), but I was regretting letting them climb the cliff in the first place because of the issues with 3D terrain and line of sight and all that and I figured it would only make it worse, plus I wasn't sure if the kobolds would be able to climb very well and they might've all just gotten picked off the cliff. I suppose it would've given the players a sense of superiority, though, and rewarded them for making a zany decision (considering that I'd just spent several minutes encouraging them to try zany things at the beginning of the session).


I was going to say something else (something I thought I could add to the adventure) but I can't remember what it was now. If I think of it again, I'll post it.


On a completely unrelated note: If I could start this adventure again, I think I would make it so that Douven Staul (I used the "missing mentor" hook) wasn't being held prisoner at the burial site but was locked up in one of the cells under the keep and the players would only find clues that he'd been at the burial site (like the magical locket with the picture of his wife in it). I think that would tie that particular encounter to the adventure a bit better (the mirror just doesn't mean anything -- I've had to embellish it a bit so that my players aren't left wondering "Why were these guys looking for this thing? What purpose does it serve?") but it's too late now for my group. They've already found him. I just wanted to throw it out there, though, in case it's of any use to somebody else.

 

[Rechan]

To the unrelated note: The mirror is a sacred artifact. The Raven Queen has actually gazed into that mirror. Thus, her reflection has been caught by it. This mirror is thus a connection to her, allowing a vantage point into the Shadowfell.

The mirror was actually stolen by the dragon, who inevitably died, and it wound up in the burial site.

 

[pukunui]

To the unrelated note: The mirror is a sacred artifact. The Raven Queen has actually gazed into that mirror. Thus, her reflection has been caught by it. This mirror is thus a connection to her, allowing a vantage point into the Shadowfell.

The mirror was actually stolen by the dragon, who inevitably died, and it wound up in the burial site.

Hmm. That's a cool idea. So far, I've had them identify that it dates back to the days of the last empire. It also does not appear to be magical (although when the cleric's player decided he was going to study it in depth and tried to use his Religion skill on it, I told him that after gazing into it for some time, he thought he saw swirling mist that slowly parted to reveal the face of the evil cultist he had seen in his dream a few nights before ... however, he was not certain he'd actually seen it in the mirror or whether he had just wanted to see it ... no one else who looked in the mirror saw anything).

Adding a bit about the Raven Queen might be fun! And make it more worth their while to hang on to it rather than try to sell it at the first opportunity.

As for the dragon, they had asked all sorts of probing questions about the dragon at the start of the adventure, so I tied it into the "St George and the dragon" story that's in the Fallcrest fluff in the DMG. I told them that the hero (Vendar?) had chased the dragon out of its lair behind the falls at Fallcrest and had tracked it up to the Winterhaven region, where he'd finally slain it. Perhaps the dragon had only recently acquired the mirror and was planning on taking it back to its lair when Vendar caught up with it ...

 

[pukunui]

I was thinking about my idea for Douven Staul earlier today. It's too late for me to have him not be at the burial site but it's not too late for me to have him get captured and incarcerated in the keep's dungeon (although it is too late for me to hold back on awarding the Quest XP for finding him).

Anyway, I was trying to figure out if it was still possible to work that idea into the story. The only way I could think of was to have Douven get kidnapped either on his way back from the burial site to Winterhaven, or on his way back from Winterhaven to Fallcrest. Better yet, what if -- considering my dilemma with the kobold lair scenario -- Irontooth sends a spy into Winterhaven, where it is established that Douven knows the PCs, so Irontooth then arranges to have Douven kidnapped and sent to Kalarel for interrogation. He then arranges to meet the PCs in order to ransom Douven. His real intention, of course, is to kill the PCs, so Douven won't actually be at the ransom rendezvous.

Good idea? Too cliche? Too difficult to pull off?

Thoughts anyone?