Help with old TreantMonk's Wizard guide

[Coros]

Hi everyone!

The guide in question - http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...amp-D-3-5-(Treantmonklvl20-CantripN-Tsuyoshi)

After doing extensive about wizards and attempting to build one for my upcoming campaign, I've run into a specific issue, which I just can't seem to figure out on my own. The problem arises when looking at a proposed Conjurer build in the guide. The proposed build is as follows:

Race: Strongheart Halfling (cheesy - but not as cheesy as a whisper gnome)
Alternate Class abilities: Level 1 (Fighter feats, Immediate magic). Level 5 (Domain granted power - Magic Domain - now you can use spell trigger items from any school)

Levels:
1: Conjurer (1)(Cloudy Conjuraton, Improved Initiative, Extend Spell)
2: Conjurer (2)
3: Conjurer (3)(Cooperative Spell)
4: Conjurer (4)
5: Conjurer (5)
6: Mage of the Arcane Order (1)(Metamagic School: Conjuration)
7: Mage of the Arcane Order (2)(Sculpt Spell)
8: Mage of the Arcane Order (3)
9: Mage of the Arcane Order (4)(Spell Focus: Conjuration)
10: Mage of the Arcane Order (5)
11: Mage of the Arcane Order (6)
12: Mage of the Arcane Order (7)(Augment Summoning)
13: Master Specialist (1) (Skill Focus: Spellcraft)
14: Master Specialist (2)
15: Master Specialist (3) (Rapid Spell, Spell focus - transmutation)
16: Archmage (1) Mastery of Shaping
17: Archmage (2) Spell Like Ability: Timestop
18: Archmage (3) Arcane Reach (Spell Penetration)
19: Archmage (4) Mastery of Elements
20: Archmage (5) Spell Power

The specific problem that I have is that I just can't figure out the lvl 15 feat selection. More precisely, how on earth can this build choose two feats on lvl 15 (Rapid Spell and Spell focus). I've tried to figure this out for days now, double-checking most of the materials found here and on minmaxboards but have finally given up :/. Any kind souls out there who are already acquainted with the material or can help me work through this?

Major thanks in advance

 

[Nagol]

edit: nm: I'm wrong.

re-edit since I was too slow to remove my suggestion:

Master Specialist (3) gets the bonus feat Greater Spell Focus as a bonus feat. Perhaps the spell focus at level 15 is a cut and paste error and it should be Greater Spell focus instead.

 

[Coros]

That is most definitely a possiblity. However, if that would be the case, then this build would be inherently incorrect (Which I would really like to doubt) as it wouldnt meet the requirements to enter Archmage PrC on lvl 16 (Which needs two spell focus of different schools).

 

[Nagol]

Hmm, the fighter feats alternative class feature (UA pg. 59) grants a bonus feat every 5th level, but that is supposed to be limited to the Fighter bonus feat list. Rapid Spell and Spell Focus are unlikely to be on that list even expanded by splat books.

 

[Coros]

That's one of the things I checked and you are correct - Rapid Spell and Spell Focus aren't on any of fighter bonus feats list afaik. Furthermore, the fighter feats alternative class states that you gain "Bonus feat list as figher; bonus feats gained at 1st level and every five levels as wizard". Now, I may be incorrect, but doesnt that mean one would have to level specifically as a Wizard class to gain the extra feats, not as a prestige class? Especially with the PrC rules stating that:

He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as the bonus feat sometimes gained by a wizard).

 

[Nagol]

Ok, if you don't take the alternative class feature of fighter feats and domain granted power, you can do it with a tiny bit or rework and the replacement of a feat at first level with Scribe Scroll. I can't find a way to make it work with the alternative class feature.

1st level becomes Conjurer 1 (Scribe Scroll + 2 of the following 3: Cloudy Conjuration, Improved Initiative, Extend Spell)
5th level becomes Conjurer 5 (Rapid Spell)

*edit for completeness sake*
15th level becomes Master Specialist 3 (Spell focus: transmutation, Greater spell focus conjuration)

 

[Nagol]

That's one of the things I checked and you are correct - Rapid Spell and Spell Focus aren't on any of fighter bonus feats list afaik. Furthermore, the fighter feats alternative class states that you gain "Bonus feat list as figher; bonus feats gained at 1st level and every five levels as wizard". Now, I may be incorrect, but doesnt that mean one would have to level specifically as a Wizard class to gain the extra feats, not as a prestige class? Especially with the PrC rules stating that:

Yeah, but there is no feat listed against Conjurer 5.

*edit* I shouldn't try this stuff so early in the morning. The Domain granted Power ate the 5th level feat

 

[Coros]

Yeah, but there is no feat listed against Conjurer 5.

Listed above the actual progression, I also included in my first post

Level 5 (Domain granted power - Magic Domain - now you can use spell trigger items from any school)

Level 5 uses the Domain Granted Power alternative feature which give the Wizard access to a cleric domain power. Not only does the Domain power grant you access to spell triggers from your prohibited schools but it's also there (I think) to allow you to take something other than forced fighter level feat due to fighter alternative feature.

Ok, if you don't take the alternative class feature of fighter feats, you can do it with a tiny bit or rework and the replacement of a feat at first level with Scribe Scroll. I can't find a way to make it work with the alternative class feature.

1st level becomes Conjurer 1 (Scribe Scroll + 2 of the following 3: Cloudy Conjuration, Improved Initiative, Extend Spell)
5th level becomes Conjurer 5 (Rapid Spell)

Yeah, that would probably mean dropping Improved Init at first level, because Cloudy Conjuration is too good to pass and Extend Spell is a prereq for Cooperative spell, giving you access to MotAO PrC on lvl 6.

Although your feedback helps, it's not specifically answering my initial problem. It seems you also think that the proposed build has a mistake in it regarding lvl 15 feat selection?

 

[Nagol]

Listed above the actual progression, I also included in my first post

Level 5 uses the Domain Granted Power alternative feature which give the Wizard access to a cleric domain power. Not only does the Domain power grant you access to spell triggers from your prohibited schools but it's also there (I think) to allow you to take something other than forced fighter level feat due to fighter alternative feature.


Yeah, that would probably mean dropping Improved Init at first level, because Cloudy Conjuration is too good to pass and Extend Spell is a prereq for Cooperative spell, giving you access to MotAO PrC on lvl 6.

Although your feedback helps, it's not specifically answering my initial problem. It seems you also think that the proposed build has a mistake in it regarding lvl 15 feat selection?

I can't find any way around that conclusion. It looks like the Master Specialist bonus of Greater Spell Focus was misread as Spell Focus and so you're out a feat at 15th level.