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General Tabletop Discussion
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Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.
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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 6981600" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>I don't know....I think shields are a pretty big deal. Anything that raises your AC by 2 at almost all times is a solid option. However, it comes at the cost of some damage potential because it limits you to one handed weapons. So it is a trade off....and one that would seem to always be classified as a negative in this discussion because the end point seems to always boil down to DPR and only DPR. </p><p></p><p>There is the Shield Master feat, which is pretty cool. It allows you to use a bonus action to shove a creature when you attack, which either knocks them back 5 feet or knocks them prone. That's a pretty solid option since all your attacks after that would have advantage on that target as long as the shove worked. Then it also allows you to add your shield's AC bonus to Dex saves. And it also allows you to use your reaction to take no damage on a successful Dex save when you would otherwise take half damage (like a fireball or lightning bolt). </p><p></p><p>The sad thing is that such a feat may be a great option for a melee combatant. But because we can't easily calculate the increase in the amount of damage that it may lead to, it won't even be considered in these discussions. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think they are at all. I don't think that you're realizing or at least acknowledging how they actually affect play. [MENTION=1560]Corwin[/MENTION] summarizes it pretty well. Keeping enemies at bay and helping dictate who they focus their attacks on is a huge factor. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with you there, if specific feats are taken by the archer. I would expect that the melee fighter would have other feats that will boost his performance in another aspect of play. DPR isn't everything. But yes, archers are not as limited in melee as melee is limited at range, assuming certain feats, in a comparison of DPR. </p><p></p><p>However, let's say that the melee fighter has taken the Heavy Armor Master and Tough feats. So he's taking 3 points less damage per hit than the archer is taking (assuming non-magic weapons), and has more HP to spare. He is more capable of taking damage than the ranged specialist, and therefore, at less risk while in melee. Comparing the amount of damage each can take instead of how much they can dish out paints a different picture. Especially if the melee fighter also uses a shield and has selected his other abilities to compliment these choices. </p><p></p><p>Damage output is a big factor. I would never deny that. But it's hard to really examine things when it's the only metric used to gauge the already subjective "effectiveness" of a character. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Variant humans, I bet. Allows this effective build to take place much sooner in the game than it likely should. The earlier in the game an archer has both of these feats, the more imbalanced it will seem compared to other approaches to combat. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True but then the person is either limited to a hand crossbow for less damage, or to one round of OAs if they wield a heavy crossbow or bow. Right? Wouldn't he have to use his item interaction to stow the sword next round? So basically, it seems like every other round he'd be able to have it out and ready for an OA. </p><p></p><p>I think DM judgment would likely play a big part in this.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 6981600, member: 6785785"] I don't know....I think shields are a pretty big deal. Anything that raises your AC by 2 at almost all times is a solid option. However, it comes at the cost of some damage potential because it limits you to one handed weapons. So it is a trade off....and one that would seem to always be classified as a negative in this discussion because the end point seems to always boil down to DPR and only DPR. There is the Shield Master feat, which is pretty cool. It allows you to use a bonus action to shove a creature when you attack, which either knocks them back 5 feet or knocks them prone. That's a pretty solid option since all your attacks after that would have advantage on that target as long as the shove worked. Then it also allows you to add your shield's AC bonus to Dex saves. And it also allows you to use your reaction to take no damage on a successful Dex save when you would otherwise take half damage (like a fireball or lightning bolt). The sad thing is that such a feat may be a great option for a melee combatant. But because we can't easily calculate the increase in the amount of damage that it may lead to, it won't even be considered in these discussions. I don't think they are at all. I don't think that you're realizing or at least acknowledging how they actually affect play. [MENTION=1560]Corwin[/MENTION] summarizes it pretty well. Keeping enemies at bay and helping dictate who they focus their attacks on is a huge factor. I agree with you there, if specific feats are taken by the archer. I would expect that the melee fighter would have other feats that will boost his performance in another aspect of play. DPR isn't everything. But yes, archers are not as limited in melee as melee is limited at range, assuming certain feats, in a comparison of DPR. However, let's say that the melee fighter has taken the Heavy Armor Master and Tough feats. So he's taking 3 points less damage per hit than the archer is taking (assuming non-magic weapons), and has more HP to spare. He is more capable of taking damage than the ranged specialist, and therefore, at less risk while in melee. Comparing the amount of damage each can take instead of how much they can dish out paints a different picture. Especially if the melee fighter also uses a shield and has selected his other abilities to compliment these choices. Damage output is a big factor. I would never deny that. But it's hard to really examine things when it's the only metric used to gauge the already subjective "effectiveness" of a character. Variant humans, I bet. Allows this effective build to take place much sooner in the game than it likely should. The earlier in the game an archer has both of these feats, the more imbalanced it will seem compared to other approaches to combat. True but then the person is either limited to a hand crossbow for less damage, or to one round of OAs if they wield a heavy crossbow or bow. Right? Wouldn't he have to use his item interaction to stow the sword next round? So basically, it seems like every other round he'd be able to have it out and ready for an OA. I think DM judgment would likely play a big part in this. [/QUOTE]
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