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Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.
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<blockquote data-quote="Ashkelon" data-source="post: 6982844" data-attributes="member: 6774887"><p>Sure thing. At level 11, a greatsword fighter with a +1 weapon deals this much damage per attack: ACC * <span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">(</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">5</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">+</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">1</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">+</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">10</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">+</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">8.3333333</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">)</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">+</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">0.05 </span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">(</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">8.33333333</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">) </span></span>where ACC is the likelihood of a hit. The 5 is from Strength, the 1 from weapon, the 10 from great weapon master, and the 8.33333 from 2d6 reroll 1s and 2s once. Against a 16 AC foe, his ACC is 50%. Against an 18 AC foe his ACC is 40%. With 3 attacks per round, his DPR is 37.75 vs the 16 AC foe or 30.45 vs the 18 AC foe. The great weapon fighter can also get a bonus action attack on a crit. For the 16 AC foe this adds 1.79 DPR and for the 18 AC foe it adds 1.45 DPR. Total DPR is 39.54 vs 16 AC, and 31.9 vs 18 AC.</p><p></p><p>The level 11 hand crossbow fighter deals this much damage per attack: ACC * <span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">(</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">5</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">+</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">1</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">+</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">10</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">+</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">3.5</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">)</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">+</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">0.05</span></span><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">*</span></span><span style="color: #1155CC"><span style="font-family: 'Inconsolata'">3.5</span></span> Because of his archery fighting style, he has 60% ACC vs the 16 AC foe and 50% ACC vs the 18 AC foe. Because of crossbow expert, he makes 4 attacks per round instead of the great weapon fighter's 3. His DPR vs the 18 AC foe is 47.5 and his DPR vs the 16 AC foe is 39.7.</p><p></p><p>47.5 is 20.1% more DPR than 39.54</p><p>39.7 is 24.4% more DPR than 31.9</p><p></p><p>The problem is even more pronounced at lower levels, because the bonus action attack of the crossbow expert provides a much larger boost when the fighter has only two attacks. At level 6 for example, against AC 13 and 15 foes, the crossbow expert deals roughly 35% more damage than the greatsword fighter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yep, included all that in my numbers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Everyone misses. Especially great weapon fighters and sharpshooters because the -5 for +10 is such a huge boost to damage. Missing is mitigated by making extra attacks. The more accuracy bonuses your party can squeeze out the better. Bless and Faerie Fire are ridiculously powerful spellls for any party with a great weapon fighter or crossbow expert because they can mostly negate the the -5 to hit penalty.</p><p></p><p>+2 to hit in a game with bounded accuracy is huge. In my level 11 example, the great weapon fighter hits AC 18 40% of the time. The archer 50% of the time. The archer is hitting his target 25% more often.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You do realize that the crossbow archer can threaten OAs too. If you are in a situation where such tactics are needed, he can wade into the melee, fight his enemies at point blank range, and threaten OAs nearly as well as the greatsword fighter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Mage armor + 20 DEX is 18 AC, same as plate but without any weight. With a 12 Strength, he has 120 lbs for gear, plenty to carry around a few daggers and 2 rapiers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I gave an example of the core 5e combat rules are balanced. it is the optional rules (AKA Feats) that remove this balance. In a game with no feats, the archery dominance disappears. Archery builds are still very worthwhile even with the checks placed upon them (15% less damage than the greatsword and disadvantage at shooting when within 5 feet of an enemy). But they are not the clearly superior choice.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashkelon, post: 6982844, member: 6774887"] Sure thing. At level 11, a greatsword fighter with a +1 weapon deals this much damage per attack: ACC * [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]([/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]5[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]+[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]1[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]+[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]10[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]+[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]8.3333333[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata])[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]+[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]0.05 [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]([/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]8.33333333[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]) [/FONT][/COLOR]where ACC is the likelihood of a hit. The 5 is from Strength, the 1 from weapon, the 10 from great weapon master, and the 8.33333 from 2d6 reroll 1s and 2s once. Against a 16 AC foe, his ACC is 50%. Against an 18 AC foe his ACC is 40%. With 3 attacks per round, his DPR is 37.75 vs the 16 AC foe or 30.45 vs the 18 AC foe. The great weapon fighter can also get a bonus action attack on a crit. For the 16 AC foe this adds 1.79 DPR and for the 18 AC foe it adds 1.45 DPR. Total DPR is 39.54 vs 16 AC, and 31.9 vs 18 AC. The level 11 hand crossbow fighter deals this much damage per attack: ACC * [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]([/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]5[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]+[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]1[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]+[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]10[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]+[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]3.5[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata])[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]+[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]0.05[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Inconsolata]*[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#1155CC][FONT=Inconsolata]3.5[/FONT][/COLOR] Because of his archery fighting style, he has 60% ACC vs the 16 AC foe and 50% ACC vs the 18 AC foe. Because of crossbow expert, he makes 4 attacks per round instead of the great weapon fighter's 3. His DPR vs the 18 AC foe is 47.5 and his DPR vs the 16 AC foe is 39.7. 47.5 is 20.1% more DPR than 39.54 39.7 is 24.4% more DPR than 31.9 The problem is even more pronounced at lower levels, because the bonus action attack of the crossbow expert provides a much larger boost when the fighter has only two attacks. At level 6 for example, against AC 13 and 15 foes, the crossbow expert deals roughly 35% more damage than the greatsword fighter. Yep, included all that in my numbers. Everyone misses. Especially great weapon fighters and sharpshooters because the -5 for +10 is such a huge boost to damage. Missing is mitigated by making extra attacks. The more accuracy bonuses your party can squeeze out the better. Bless and Faerie Fire are ridiculously powerful spellls for any party with a great weapon fighter or crossbow expert because they can mostly negate the the -5 to hit penalty. +2 to hit in a game with bounded accuracy is huge. In my level 11 example, the great weapon fighter hits AC 18 40% of the time. The archer 50% of the time. The archer is hitting his target 25% more often. You do realize that the crossbow archer can threaten OAs too. If you are in a situation where such tactics are needed, he can wade into the melee, fight his enemies at point blank range, and threaten OAs nearly as well as the greatsword fighter. Mage armor + 20 DEX is 18 AC, same as plate but without any weight. With a 12 Strength, he has 120 lbs for gear, plenty to carry around a few daggers and 2 rapiers. I gave an example of the core 5e combat rules are balanced. it is the optional rules (AKA Feats) that remove this balance. In a game with no feats, the archery dominance disappears. Archery builds are still very worthwhile even with the checks placed upon them (15% less damage than the greatsword and disadvantage at shooting when within 5 feet of an enemy). But they are not the clearly superior choice. [/QUOTE]
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