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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.
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<blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 6993542" data-attributes="member: 6787650"><p>Assuming you're asking about the 5E version and not AD&D, since I don't care to discuss in this thread adjudications for a game I haven't run in decades:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If the caster goes for a 20' ring (since the gnolls are charging from all sides IIRC) and plants himself in the middle of the ring, then anyone who ends his turn 11' to 21' from the caster's center of gravity will take 5d8 (22.5) damage, killing 58% of all gnolls instantly, and then take another 5d8 from crossing the wall, killing approximately 100% of the rest. So the only winning strategy for getting through the wall is to end one turn 22'+ feet away, and then on the next turn charge through the wall and hope that there isn't an obstacle on the other side (like a PC, or a field of caltrops) that prevents you from actually passing through all the way to the safe side of the wall.</p><p></p><p>This kind of calibrated movement, designed to avoid damage while still attacking the enemy in melee as soon as possible, is exactly the same kind of thinking that would prevent you from taking double damage from Spirit Guardians before making your attack. Ergo, gnolls who take double damage from Spirit Guardians seem like good candidates for "someone dumb/brave enough to charge through a Wall of Fire", too.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe anyone who's just seen them kill a dozen gnolls already? Leaving 58 gnolls to chuck spears or shoot arrows.</p><p></p><p><strong>Again, I don't think mobs of humanoids are a bad encounter per se.</strong> Sometimes it's tremendously fun for the PCs to mow down enemy armies. As a player, I would <em>love</em> a scenario like this, especially because I have no sympathy for gnolls. Fighting 70 gnolls (with or without longbows) is 10x more fun for me than fighting an Iron Golem, maybe because I grew up on the Gold Box games. </p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>But I do think it's bad <em>science</em></strong> to run a scenario where mobs of melee humanoids who refuse to so much as chuck a spear or pause before charging into a fey spirit blender get mowed down by AoE effects, and then conclude that humanoid mobs in general are weak opponents in 5E. The flaw in the experiment is using weak and stupid humanoids in your experiment (customized berserk gnolls with only melee attacks), and then generalizing that result to smart and well-trained humanoids (drow, hobgoblins, or even a smarter group of gnolls using MM stats).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FormerlyHemlock, post: 6993542, member: 6787650"] Assuming you're asking about the 5E version and not AD&D, since I don't care to discuss in this thread adjudications for a game I haven't run in decades: If the caster goes for a 20' ring (since the gnolls are charging from all sides IIRC) and plants himself in the middle of the ring, then anyone who ends his turn 11' to 21' from the caster's center of gravity will take 5d8 (22.5) damage, killing 58% of all gnolls instantly, and then take another 5d8 from crossing the wall, killing approximately 100% of the rest. So the only winning strategy for getting through the wall is to end one turn 22'+ feet away, and then on the next turn charge through the wall and hope that there isn't an obstacle on the other side (like a PC, or a field of caltrops) that prevents you from actually passing through all the way to the safe side of the wall. This kind of calibrated movement, designed to avoid damage while still attacking the enemy in melee as soon as possible, is exactly the same kind of thinking that would prevent you from taking double damage from Spirit Guardians before making your attack. Ergo, gnolls who take double damage from Spirit Guardians seem like good candidates for "someone dumb/brave enough to charge through a Wall of Fire", too. Maybe anyone who's just seen them kill a dozen gnolls already? Leaving 58 gnolls to chuck spears or shoot arrows. [B]Again, I don't think mobs of humanoids are a bad encounter per se.[/B] Sometimes it's tremendously fun for the PCs to mow down enemy armies. As a player, I would [I]love[/I] a scenario like this, especially because I have no sympathy for gnolls. Fighting 70 gnolls (with or without longbows) is 10x more fun for me than fighting an Iron Golem, maybe because I grew up on the Gold Box games. [B] But I do think it's bad [I]science[/I][/B] to run a scenario where mobs of melee humanoids who refuse to so much as chuck a spear or pause before charging into a fey spirit blender get mowed down by AoE effects, and then conclude that humanoid mobs in general are weak opponents in 5E. The flaw in the experiment is using weak and stupid humanoids in your experiment (customized berserk gnolls with only melee attacks), and then generalizing that result to smart and well-trained humanoids (drow, hobgoblins, or even a smarter group of gnolls using MM stats). [/QUOTE]
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