Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 6995400" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>I actually removed the comment about the contradiction, because I misread his first line. But my point wasn't that you can't grapple two people. My point was about how the interpretation of the rule changes the existing fiction in the world, which he even acknowledges with his comment about earlier editions.</p><p></p><p>As for your point about what the DM knows/doesn't know, I'll agree with this. Which is one of the reasons why I will also research things to learn more. I don't have an issue with being able to grapple two people. However, I would argue that the situation is important and that it would be harder to grapple two people than one, and more importantly that the change in the rule from earlier editions (and his exploitation of it) changes the existing fiction of the world.</p><p></p><p>My example was going to be a Mom or Dad with two of their kids. It's possible, but not as easy as grabbing just one. Your examples also imply this, by saying it's more common/easier when the grappler is either larger (Mom and kids) or better trained (higher level, which would overcome the disadvantage, or proficient vs non proficient which also would do so), or stronger (18+ vs 10+ STR).</p><p></p><p>My general approach to something I question is:</p><p>1. Don't say no if possible, assign a DC and/or disadvantage</p><p>2. Find out what's really possible (if there's a real-world component, obviously this doesn't work within magic)</p><p></p><p>My issue is that in these types of guides that they aren't pointing out that it's possible because it is/is not in real life (although I misread his first statement and originally took it to be an acknowledgement of that), but that it's not only possible, but the preferred tactic because of the way the rules are written. </p><p></p><p>Another example in the document is his assertion that instead of making an escape attempt, make a shove attempt. His reasoning is that a shove attempt replaces an attack, so if you have multiple attacks, you have multiple chances to escape. Where an escape attempt replaces your action so you only have one chance.</p><p></p><p>My assumption is that pushing and shoving is generally one of the actions a person takes in general when attempting to escape a grapple, but even if you want to differentiate between different types of escape methods, a shove might be more effective because you are Strong rather than Dextrous, not because you "get more attempts."</p><p></p><p>I will also note that he does acknowledge that not all DMs will allow all of these options, which is good.</p><p></p><p>Sometimes rules corrections are needed, and those corrections might change the fiction of the world, but if the rule is considered in context of what it's modeling, then it's often not needed. The simple solution here is that when somebody attempts to grapple a second creature, the DM says, "OK, no problem, you'll just make your grapple check with disadvantage."</p><p></p><p>What's lacking nowadays are the types of articles that used to be a mainstay of Dragon magazine, which was discussing rules, suggesting new rules, or modifications to rules, or plain just assistance in adjudicating rules by putting them in a real world, and often historical context. Instead of a guide that shows how to exploit the way the rules are written, a guide that explains what the rule is modeling so that more DMs are aware that grappling two people is in fact possible. This would address your concern of DMs adjudicating through ignorance, and also hopefully keep the rule system more compact.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 6995400, member: 6778044"] I actually removed the comment about the contradiction, because I misread his first line. But my point wasn't that you can't grapple two people. My point was about how the interpretation of the rule changes the existing fiction in the world, which he even acknowledges with his comment about earlier editions. As for your point about what the DM knows/doesn't know, I'll agree with this. Which is one of the reasons why I will also research things to learn more. I don't have an issue with being able to grapple two people. However, I would argue that the situation is important and that it would be harder to grapple two people than one, and more importantly that the change in the rule from earlier editions (and his exploitation of it) changes the existing fiction of the world. My example was going to be a Mom or Dad with two of their kids. It's possible, but not as easy as grabbing just one. Your examples also imply this, by saying it's more common/easier when the grappler is either larger (Mom and kids) or better trained (higher level, which would overcome the disadvantage, or proficient vs non proficient which also would do so), or stronger (18+ vs 10+ STR). My general approach to something I question is: 1. Don't say no if possible, assign a DC and/or disadvantage 2. Find out what's really possible (if there's a real-world component, obviously this doesn't work within magic) My issue is that in these types of guides that they aren't pointing out that it's possible because it is/is not in real life (although I misread his first statement and originally took it to be an acknowledgement of that), but that it's not only possible, but the preferred tactic because of the way the rules are written. Another example in the document is his assertion that instead of making an escape attempt, make a shove attempt. His reasoning is that a shove attempt replaces an attack, so if you have multiple attacks, you have multiple chances to escape. Where an escape attempt replaces your action so you only have one chance. My assumption is that pushing and shoving is generally one of the actions a person takes in general when attempting to escape a grapple, but even if you want to differentiate between different types of escape methods, a shove might be more effective because you are Strong rather than Dextrous, not because you "get more attempts." I will also note that he does acknowledge that not all DMs will allow all of these options, which is good. Sometimes rules corrections are needed, and those corrections might change the fiction of the world, but if the rule is considered in context of what it's modeling, then it's often not needed. The simple solution here is that when somebody attempts to grapple a second creature, the DM says, "OK, no problem, you'll just make your grapple check with disadvantage." What's lacking nowadays are the types of articles that used to be a mainstay of Dragon magazine, which was discussing rules, suggesting new rules, or modifications to rules, or plain just assistance in adjudicating rules by putting them in a real world, and often historical context. Instead of a guide that shows how to exploit the way the rules are written, a guide that explains what the rule is modeling so that more DMs are aware that grappling two people is in fact possible. This would address your concern of DMs adjudicating through ignorance, and also hopefully keep the rule system more compact. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.
Top