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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7969349" data-attributes="member: 16814">This is the argument from tradition.&nbsp; I don't care what they had before -- it's irrelevent.&nbsp; I care what they have now.&nbsp; Looking back can provide useful direction, but it's not a constraint.As such, currently psionics will either have unique mechanics or will use the spell system.&nbsp; If the mechanics are unique (like the psi-die), then VSM isn't relevant.&nbsp; If it's the spell system, then VSM already is baked in and we're talking about removing it for psionists, not adding it.It's current edition, catch up.Then you haven't paid full attention.&nbsp; That was explicitly said by at least one poster, and not as a strawman.&nbsp; There's all sorts, Max, and some really do want undetectable psionics.&nbsp; I'll agree that you've separated yourself from that crowd.However, saying 'no VSM for psionics' is making the undetectable argument unless you also make clear that 'no VSM' really means 'VSM, but it'll look like this instead.'&nbsp; This is because VSM is how you detect a spell is cast, at least in cases where the spell doesn't have an obvious visual or auditory effect (clearly, fireball would be detected, but not until the spell is in effect).&nbsp; There's the argument you intend to make and then the one that is communicated.&nbsp; &quot;No VSM&quot; is no detection until after the spell is case.&nbsp; &quot;VSM, but it looks different from when arcane or divine casters do it,&quot; is a different, more nuanced, and definitely more clear argument.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7969349, member: 16814"] This is the argument from tradition. I don't care what they had before -- it's irrelevent. I care what they have now. Looking back can provide useful direction, but it's not a constraint. As such, currently psionics will either have unique mechanics or will use the spell system. If the mechanics are unique (like the psi-die), then VSM isn't relevant. If it's the spell system, then VSM already is baked in and we're talking about removing it for psionists, not adding it. It's current edition, catch up. Then you haven't paid full attention. That was explicitly said by at least one poster, and not as a strawman. There's all sorts, Max, and some really do want undetectable psionics. I'll agree that you've separated yourself from that crowd. However, saying 'no VSM for psionics' is making the undetectable argument unless you also make clear that 'no VSM' really means 'VSM, but it'll look like this instead.' This is because VSM is how you detect a spell is cast, at least in cases where the spell doesn't have an obvious visual or auditory effect (clearly, fireball would be detected, but not until the spell is in effect). There's the argument you intend to make and then the one that is communicated. "No VSM" is no detection until after the spell is case. "VSM, but it looks different from when arcane or divine casters do it," is a different, more nuanced, and definitely more clear argument. [/QUOTE]

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