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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ThoughtBubble" data-source="post: 1322007" data-attributes="member: 9723">Steveroo, please find another way to make your point. That is a very loaded example, and for the sake of my sanity and keeping my tone civil I'm going to ignore it.Heroism does have to come from both sides of the table. If the players don't want to be heroic, the DM won't be able to talk them into it. But if the DM doesn't want things to be heroic, then they won't be. I've spent several campaigns trying desperately to act heroic, and discovering that it doesn't work. As a player, I need rewards for risking my neck, and my character has to find something worthwhile in it.Reaper brings up several good points. I think that, depending on how high level the rest of the world is, it can be hard to feel over the top heroic. There's actually a fairly easy way of dealing with it though. Lower the average level of the world, and lower the DC's where appropriate. If you want people to run on walls like the main character in Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, then make the balance DC a 15. Now it's achievable half the time with 5 ranks. You can be doing manuvers like that at level 2 if your DM is up to it. A little bit of that sort of tweaking, and Legolas isn't that impressive.I can see a 14th level character pulling off the same crap Legolas does. Climing up an elephant? Make the jump check, now a climb check, now a balance check. Good thing everyone's too busy stomping on the mooks to pay attention to the elf. It's allready beat up from the calvery charge, so he only really needs to spend a round or two of shooting to bring it down. I can't see the things heroic characters doing as any more impressive than what you can get in D&D. It's just that the heroic characters have better cinematography and awesome music. Can you folks who think that heroic characters can do things that are more impressive than D&D give a few concrete examples? I'd love to hear them, so I can alter my game to make them fit.Now, magic defniately changes the tone of the game. I can't say if it makes being an impressive meele character harder. Mostly, it sounds like the need to keep shiny uber powerful NPC's under control, and keep up with pacing. Like I said, if the average joe is level 1, anything begins feeling more heroic.We seem to have two 'definitions' of heroism coming up. Grand scale vs Noble and Sacrifical. I still think that proper feedback and rewarding(from everyone involved) is the only way to really make it work.</blockquote>

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