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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7184819" data-attributes="member: 996">We're talking archetypes, not classes - though classes, as the single most powerful PC-defining choice in D&amp;D, are an obvious way to go to model an archetype.&nbsp; The Hero is an archetype that D&amp;D under-serves.&nbsp; A specific class might be a solution, but it'd probably obviate the fighter in the process, so it's a thorny issue, bringing the fighter up to a level &amp; breadth of competence sufficient to fill the archetype's shoes would be the better one, IMHO.&nbsp; It'd mean making the fighter more capable in the other two pillars than it ever has been in the game's history.&nbsp;Yeah, I'm seeing a pattern with what you consider a class.&nbsp; If it's not already a class, you wouldn't consider it one.&nbsp; ;PSeriously, though, D&amp;D /does/ cover the Knight in Shining Armor archetype pretty spectacularly, as long as you're a devout/magic-using Knight in Shining Armor:&nbsp; the Paladin.It's /been/ a class, in and of itself, and a good one. (It's also been an awful one, the Miniatures Handbook 'Marshal.')&nbsp; And it's an archetype that currently is badly under-supported.&nbsp; The 5e bard works for a magic-using charismatic-leader who inspires you with song &amp; story - a narrow sub-set/alternative-form of the archetype.&nbsp; Nothing like that leaps to mind from genre.&nbsp; But, song-as-magic is certainly represented - by Orpheus, Talesin, and various modern fantasy series (Spellsinger, for a quirky example) - just not coupled with leadership, particularly.Oh, and 5e has a feat that uses the word 'leader.'&nbsp; That's about it. &nbsp;We get it, only extant classes are classes.&nbsp; :sigh: In this case, though, I think you're missing the point:&nbsp; It's not that D&amp;D lacks a class that /makes/ you a Reluctant Hero, it's that most classes make you a very enthusiastic/determined Adventurer.&nbsp; You can't be a reluctant wizard or cleric or fighter or paladin or what not, because all those classes required a certain amount (often a tremendous amount) of determination &amp; commitment to acquire.&nbsp; You could be a reluctant Sorcerer, though, or tricked into a Warlock pact, perhaps.&nbsp;/Destined/.&nbsp; Maybe not for success, but for a critical role in events.&nbsp; D&amp;D's general zero-to-hero arc and instant death rules make it unsuitable.&nbsp; The archetype is more suited to fiction than RPGs.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7184819, member: 996"] We're talking archetypes, not classes - though classes, as the single most powerful PC-defining choice in D&D, are an obvious way to go to model an archetype. The Hero is an archetype that D&D under-serves. A specific class might be a solution, but it'd probably obviate the fighter in the process, so it's a thorny issue, bringing the fighter up to a level & breadth of competence sufficient to fill the archetype's shoes would be the better one, IMHO. It'd mean making the fighter more capable in the other two pillars than it ever has been in the game's history. Yeah, I'm seeing a pattern with what you consider a class. If it's not already a class, you wouldn't consider it one. ;P Seriously, though, D&D /does/ cover the Knight in Shining Armor archetype pretty spectacularly, as long as you're a devout/magic-using Knight in Shining Armor: the Paladin. It's /been/ a class, in and of itself, and a good one. (It's also been an awful one, the Miniatures Handbook 'Marshal.') And it's an archetype that currently is badly under-supported. The 5e bard works for a magic-using charismatic-leader who inspires you with song & story - a narrow sub-set/alternative-form of the archetype. Nothing like that leaps to mind from genre. But, song-as-magic is certainly represented - by Orpheus, Talesin, and various modern fantasy series (Spellsinger, for a quirky example) - just not coupled with leadership, particularly. Oh, and 5e has a feat that uses the word 'leader.' That's about it. We get it, only extant classes are classes. :sigh: In this case, though, I think you're missing the point: It's not that D&D lacks a class that /makes/ you a Reluctant Hero, it's that most classes make you a very enthusiastic/determined Adventurer. You can't be a reluctant wizard or cleric or fighter or paladin or what not, because all those classes required a certain amount (often a tremendous amount) of determination & commitment to acquire. You could be a reluctant Sorcerer, though, or tricked into a Warlock pact, perhaps. /Destined/. Maybe not for success, but for a critical role in events. D&D's general zero-to-hero arc and instant death rules make it unsuitable. The archetype is more suited to fiction than RPGs. [/QUOTE]

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