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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5490758" data-attributes="member: 61155">I was considering them two seperate elements. Rangers and rogues have DPR on par with Slayers and Thieves - in addition, they have the added benefit of nova potential, which can often be important. I'm not suggesting it trumps DPR by any means - but I do think that ignoring it entirely is somewhat silly.   In which case the same remains true for the Essentials characters. That's my point.   Look, I'm sorry, but you keep tossing out numbers without anything actually backing them up. You ignore the fact that the PHB rogue, at level 1, can have higher damage than the thief (due to Brutal Scoundrel) and higher accuracy (due to +1 to hit and weapon talent). He doesn't have CA quite as guaranteed, but can still get it the vast, vast, vast majority of the time, and the usual elements that take it away from him (such as daze) do the same to the thief.  Your claim was that Strikers dealing double damage over non-strikers was a new thing. It isn't. At level 1, the PHB Rogue is perfectly able to do that. The ranger quickly reaches the same place and surpasses him, due to multiplying damage bonuses and multi-attack powers.</blockquote>