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Herores of the Fallen Lands - Are Slayers underpowered?
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5492195" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>I think a portion of our disconnect comes from your claim that Rogues do double damage of non-Strikers (in a consistent way).</p><p></p><p>I disagree. I had a player actually quit the game in frustration 2 years ago because his melee Rogue got the snot kicked out of him encounter after encounter after encounter. He wanted a Rogue that could dash in, attack, do a lot of damage, and Tumble out of trouble.</p><p></p><p>That really doesn't happen too often or even a majority of the time with a Rogue.</p><p></p><p>Quite frankly, in every game I have been in, Rogues got the snot kicked out of themselves if they go into combat a lot. If they attack from range, they don't always get CA or they need a "special build" and hence, do not always do "twice the amount of damage of other non-strikers".</p><p></p><p></p><p>The Fighter is doing decent damage round in and round out.</p><p></p><p>The Wizard is targeting two or more foes most rounds, usually safely at range.</p><p></p><p>The melee Rogue can do the same thing, but he pays a heavy price for doing so and ends up unconscious as often or more often than most other PCs.</p><p></p><p>An unconscious Rogue is not doing twice the damage of other non-Strikers.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Now, one could create a hiding Elven bow shot Rogue that gets CA due to hiding. But, not everyone wants that PC design.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That is why I posted cases A, B, and C (which you mostly ignored). The melee Thief can charge into melee and do good damage, he can then get flank CA for one round to take out the foe (just as often as the Rogue), and then he can on the next round run away and throw a dagger at someone else.</p><p></p><p>No, he cannot charge every round (without the proper footware), but he can do Sneak Attack damage most rounds. If he gets hurt, he can back away and just throw daggers and STILL do sneak attack damage.</p><p></p><p>The Rogue can rarely do this and only if he has the proper powers (or the proper party makeup and feat).</p><p></p><p></p><p>The power creep is that the Thief can do this round in and round out. In 3 levels of our game, our Thief did not get Sneak Attack damage about 3 times and 2 of those times were Action Points used late in an encounter.</p><p></p><p>That really is unheard of for an original Rogue because a Rogue does not get CA every round.</p><p></p><p>I can only remember the Thief in our game missing once. He rolled a 1 and had already used an Action Point for that encounter. In 3 levels, whenever he rolled a 1, he used an Action Point. If he rolled low and it was not a round in which he used Backstab (with which he needed a 1 to miss), he used Heroic Effort. So, he missed once in three levels and almost every attack had Sneak Attack damage.</p><p></p><p>Yes, Rogues now can get a lot of the same feats and racial features that help out a Thief. But, they cannot get the class features and its the Thief class features that create the power creep. Power creep that it takes quite a few levels of Encounter and Daily powers to overcome.</p><p></p><p>The player who quit our game 2 years ago would have loved to have a Thief instead of a Rogue. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 5492195, member: 2011"] I think a portion of our disconnect comes from your claim that Rogues do double damage of non-Strikers (in a consistent way). I disagree. I had a player actually quit the game in frustration 2 years ago because his melee Rogue got the snot kicked out of him encounter after encounter after encounter. He wanted a Rogue that could dash in, attack, do a lot of damage, and Tumble out of trouble. That really doesn't happen too often or even a majority of the time with a Rogue. Quite frankly, in every game I have been in, Rogues got the snot kicked out of themselves if they go into combat a lot. If they attack from range, they don't always get CA or they need a "special build" and hence, do not always do "twice the amount of damage of other non-strikers". The Fighter is doing decent damage round in and round out. The Wizard is targeting two or more foes most rounds, usually safely at range. The melee Rogue can do the same thing, but he pays a heavy price for doing so and ends up unconscious as often or more often than most other PCs. An unconscious Rogue is not doing twice the damage of other non-Strikers. Now, one could create a hiding Elven bow shot Rogue that gets CA due to hiding. But, not everyone wants that PC design. That is why I posted cases A, B, and C (which you mostly ignored). The melee Thief can charge into melee and do good damage, he can then get flank CA for one round to take out the foe (just as often as the Rogue), and then he can on the next round run away and throw a dagger at someone else. No, he cannot charge every round (without the proper footware), but he can do Sneak Attack damage most rounds. If he gets hurt, he can back away and just throw daggers and STILL do sneak attack damage. The Rogue can rarely do this and only if he has the proper powers (or the proper party makeup and feat). The power creep is that the Thief can do this round in and round out. In 3 levels of our game, our Thief did not get Sneak Attack damage about 3 times and 2 of those times were Action Points used late in an encounter. That really is unheard of for an original Rogue because a Rogue does not get CA every round. I can only remember the Thief in our game missing once. He rolled a 1 and had already used an Action Point for that encounter. In 3 levels, whenever he rolled a 1, he used an Action Point. If he rolled low and it was not a round in which he used Backstab (with which he needed a 1 to miss), he used Heroic Effort. So, he missed once in three levels and almost every attack had Sneak Attack damage. Yes, Rogues now can get a lot of the same feats and racial features that help out a Thief. But, they cannot get the class features and its the Thief class features that create the power creep. Power creep that it takes quite a few levels of Encounter and Daily powers to overcome. The player who quit our game 2 years ago would have loved to have a Thief instead of a Rogue. ;) [/QUOTE]
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