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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CuRoi" data-source="post: 5625001" data-attributes="member: 98032">It's good to recognize that about your group, though from your explanation you had at least one person who was trying or wanted to interact or make it a "challenge". I'm too much of a softy and I'll entertain anything anyone wants to put on the table. But I can see how if your group sort of drifts too far afield during such "Challenges" that you might feel you need to reign it in to keep the game moving. My group is pretty hard nosed on challenges (I don't run 4e so don't interpret this as the 4e definition of "Challenge" BTW!). It's one major component of how we play the game together. They love to seek them out and hate to admit defeat. They've opted for a TPK when presented with the possibility of capture by superior forces, they've changed the course of my entire campaign through resourcefulness and great ideas that I wish I would have had first. They're stubborn, and honestly I love 'em for it. We've integrated that into how we play. If there is some sort of puzzle / secret door on a wall and the PCs are being hunted down by a horde of ghouls, if all the players gather around and start tossing skills at the puzzle asking for answers, I'm not the least bit upset if the Druid steps up, melts the stone wall like butter and says "By the gods we don't have time for this you fools, MOVE!" <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> So, my challenge was eradicated by a prepared player, big deal. That makes a great scene yet and something the players will probably talk about for years as opposed "do you remember that time we all rolled random skills standing by a wall so we could get past some annoying puzzle?"  When you guys start all this regimented talk of "scene framing" and "resolution" and such, honestly, I get completely lost. Gaming for me isn't an academic exercise but a creative pursuit. I'm very positive I maybe frame scenes and all that jazz, but frankly, I couldn't tell you when that specifically happens in any given session.  I start with a vague idea of how the story is going to go in my head and just as often some one will say "Hey, we'll do X". "X" will be something I had not considered, is an incredibly cool idea, and takes the entire story in a direction which I want to explore as much as they do. So I just run with it. At any rate I long ago gave up trying to "control scenes" because the stuff my players do is often cooler than what I had in mind. I usually just introduce my players to situations and see what they do with it, all the while trying to stay one step ahead of them so the story keeps flowing (and doing it by rules we're both trying to adhere to).  I've got a player that loves to play self sacrificing do gooders. Letting a dying man utter his final words and pass into the great beyond would be a no-go for him and would have been a pretty darn funny "scene". He'd be all over the NPC, "Shhh, save your breath my friend, we'll get you out of here." And then someone would propose some completely off the wall plan to stabilize the guy and it would be just so darn good there's no way I could just say "oh, no, he's dead Jim." At any rate, I'm not saying anything you or anyone else had proposed is "wrong", just saying how from my experience it wouldn't work with my group. Sometimes I do think it would be cool if I could tell MY story during a DnD session without my meddlesome players interrupting, heh. If I feel I really need a dying man's words to be passed on without the players being able to rush to his aid it will probably be a programmed illusion, a note, a magic mouth, a magic item, a construct or familiar, voice from beyond the grave, ghost, an actual non-vague answer from speak with dead (very rare for me), etc. etc. Or, the guy will really be, by any rule I can think of, unsaveable, cause I know the players are going to try - it's part of the way they enjoy our game. Frankly, for me its part of the fun to see if they can puzzle out a way to save him or not using the same rules I used. And when they do trump my "brilliant" (sometimes) idea, it's usually even just as exciting to me. If I want emotional investment, it's all in the lead up to the death. They get to know the NPC, his strengths, his faults, where he works, his family. They probably have relied on him in the past in their adventures and when that NPC is found dead, beyond death, close to death, it's got enough emotional charge to require a reflex save. But, if they do manage to find some way to save him, well, I can't complain. It means I did my job and they're invested in him enough to try to puzzle out a means of bringing him back.</blockquote>

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