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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovi" data-source="post: 8764460" data-attributes="member: 7037596">Well, sure, if you're defining those things in ways that D&D does them, then D&D will hit them all because you've created a tautology.If you actually consider these terms outside of the tautology, all RPGs hit these categories, but individual ones will stress different ones.  And, um, what the heck is with abnegation?  That's self-denial of things you like.  Looking into it, this seems to come from Extra Credits (or most of the references I can find refer back to the EC video) and I think they just took that.  The list that is posted above seems to derive from  a paper called Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics by Robin Hunicke, Marc LeBlanc, and Robert Zubek.  They have the following categories in aesthetics:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Sensation ("game as sense pleasure") stimulates the player's senses in a memorable way, be it through visual effects, music, voice acting, scenery, art style, etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Fantasy ("game as make-believe") lets the player experience being something or someone they can never become in Real Life — usually in an empowering and inspiring way.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Narrative ("game as drama") tells stories of human drama that the players witness, rather than live through, commonly employing Interactive Storytelling Tropes.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Challenge ("game as obstacle course") derives joy from overcoming arbitrary obstacles. Extreme difficulty may be a factor (that is, a dynamic) reinforcing this aesthetic but it's not a requirement.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Fellowship ("game as social framework") brings multiple players to work as a group and achieve a common goal. This is the main appeal of team-based and Co-Op Multiplayer games.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Discovery ("game as uncharted territory") incites the player with yet-undiscovered possibilities, ranging from exploring the game world to mixing basic game elements into unexpected combinations.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Expression ("game as self-discovery") allows the player to leave a mark on the game world, from Character Customization to shaping the landscape, possibly learning something new about themselves in the process.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Submission ("game as pastime")note  lets the player zone out and have a feeling of achievement without investing too much effort and emotions into it, playing as if on auto-pilot. Another way to look at it is that such games let their players safely transfer control (submit) to them for a while, facilitating a pleasant and relaxing play experience.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Competition ("game as struggle for dominance")note  sets multiple players to compete for the number one spot in a particular discipline, either directly or indirectly (e.g. via ladder rank).</li> </ol>It looks like Abnegation is subbing in for Submission and Competition is left entirely off.  Again, not sure why a word that means to deny oneself something one wants is standing it for zoning out to mindless entertainment (as EC defines it).However, that aside, if we look at the aesthetics from the source material for the list, we see they aren't defined by D&D, and actually apply pretty well to many RPGs.</blockquote>

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