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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thomas Shey" data-source="post: 8786148" data-attributes="member: 7026617">But again, to make that argument you're ignoring things other than its design, and its not clear that it was intrinsically even designed for commercial success that much better than other games.   (This is ignoring whether such a design intention is something anyone should respect even among its players; its only benefit intrinsically is ease in finding players). That's what I mean about begging the question; it could well be a mediocre design even with that intent and still succeed at it because of the other advantages it has.  It just can't be bad (and usually the only people who will outright claim that have a bone to pick with it rather than trying to assess it from any sort of neutral perspective).I think its entirely possible for them to be inseparable; i.e. it wouldn't be as successful with a worse design, but another game of comparable design wouldn't be as successful, either.  Accelleration can come from multiple sources, and none of them individually have to be the whole story.The question there you have to answer is "Is design the primary cause here?"  There are a lot of moving parts in that question that you can't ignore, at least if you're having an honest discussion.I'm willing to go far as to say that 5e is more acceptable to its overall market than 4e because the latter was aimed at too narrow a part of the market, and is a better design in some ways than 3e (and those are ways that are likely to impact a lot of people, while the ways its worse will matter to less).  But the former is not an assessment of quality as much as targeting (i.e. being intended for a different use than its predecessor, even if the designers of the former didn't realize that), and the latter has to be noted in the context of 3e being, in some important ways, a serious trainwreck, just one that took a while for many people to identify as such.</blockquote>

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