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<blockquote data-quote="Redthistle" data-source="post: 6961039" data-attributes="member: 6778305"><p>Caveat: I'm thinking "out loud" below, as I'm having to consider things you've already thought about, but hang in there. I've got answers for you at the end.</p><p></p><p>1. Regarding the race: Take a look at the Revenant subrace for possible ideas about your character's race. </p><p></p><p><a href="http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/gothic-heroes" target="_blank">http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/gothic-heroes</a> </p><p></p><p>is a free download.</p><p></p><p>"Basically the concept of Aramil Soveliss is Pyromancer (Fire Specialized Wizard) and Champion Fighter. The simplicity of the Champion (I attack you with my sword) + Pyromancer (I hit you with A fire spell, as long as it does fire damage I don't care.)"<p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000">Mind you, the survey following the release of this Unearthed Arcana article showed little enthusiasm for the subrace:</span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000">"Turning to the <a href="http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/gothic-heroes" target="_blank">Gothic Heroes installment of Unearthed Arcana</a>, the results showed that the revenant subrace had quite a bit of dissatisfaction. The concept seems fine, but I wonder if presenting a plot point as the basis for a race is a good idea.<span style="font-size: 10px">The concept of a revenant character might work better as a DM’s tool, rather than as a race a character might pick."</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">Otoh, things about it might be a good fit for your concept. </span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Since this is in the line of a mind-itch you've just got to scratch, I imagine you've also considered playing a tiefling, which gives you immediate access to Hellish Rebuke. Revenant is available as a tiefling subrace, per the UA article. Sadly, this subrace option as described in the article would prevent anyone from being able to use Hellish Rebuke with the revenant.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">2. Regarding the multi-classes, and getting the most bang for the character levels, you mention Extra Attack. </span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Remember, the Extra Attack feature is tied to class level, not to character level. Which class/archetype level are you pulling that from? </span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">It takes 5 class levels of Fighter to access that, which is as early as possible for any class (Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger also gain it at 5th). If you do include Fighter, I'd suggest taking 6 levels to also gain the 6th-level ASI, as you may be losing an ASI or two from other multi-class selections. </span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">So, 6 levels of Fighter wins out for Extra Attack, gaining 3 ASI bumps. 8 levels of Paladin would be the alternative, gaining Extra Attack but only 2 ASI in that range.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">[One other spot where Extra Attack can be gained: Bard's College of Valor at 6th level, but this class doesn't offer much else for this character concept.]</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">3. Fiery and blasty cantrips, delightful for their available-every-round usefulness, if not so much for their punctuated (as in not-every-level) damage increases (which are at least tied to PC-level, not class-level), are restricted somewhat by class. </span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">[Cantrips: Cleric - Flame Strike; Sorcerer and Wizard - Fire Bolt and Shocking Grasp; Warlock - Eldritch Blast]. </span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">The shared spell-casting ability of Charisma beats either Cleric (Wisdom) or Wizard (Intelligence), so the choice is between Sorcerer and Warlock. </span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">4. Taking ASI potential into account again, however you split the levels between them, I'd do it in 4-level blocks to avoid losing any ASI opportunities. These take up 12 levels, then, which with 6 levels of Fighter leaves 2 levels available for Paladin (again, Charisma for spell-casting).</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">So, the class/level options for Aramil Soveliss:</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Fighter 6 / Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Warlock 8</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Fighter 6 / Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 8 / Warlock 4</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Paladin 8 / Sorcerer 4 / Warlock 8</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Paladin 8 / Sorcerer 8 / Warlock 4</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">5. The tough nut to crack is which class to chose at which character level. It's easy to see why you sought counsel for this question.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Well, for reasons of flavor, imho, I'd take Sorcerer before Warlock, as the idea of a character beginning with some innate casting ability that generates into a hunger for more, leading to bargaining for those extra magics, just makes an intuitive sense.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">How to fit Paladin into that power evolution may be a story-line problem, since its possible to lose Paladin abilities if one becomes an oath-breaker. Not a problem if you are commanded by your deity to clean up some subset of the world's scum. </span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">If that's not the case, where is that Blackguard build, anyway? It might just fit the character concept better than a Paladin. </span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">[About that Blackguard thing ...</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">RhaezDaevan had posted a potential Blackguard (variant Paladin) class (with 3 Archetypes: Shadow Master, Bone Lord, and Fiendish Champion) here on ENWorld:</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">Read more: <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?367324-Blackguard#ixzz3FT5eR6G3" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?367324-Blackguard#ixzz3FT5eR6G3</a></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">which may be useful to your considerations on this.]</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">6. So, using either the Blackguard or the Paladin (each preferable to Fighter because of the character concept), this is where my thoughts take me:</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">PC Level 1: Sorcerer 1. Something in Aramil's life has wreaked a devastating injustice. It has jolted him out of whatever worldview he had before, and launched him on a new trajectory - he's becoming a Payload of Payback. This circumstance has also broken open whatever inhibitions he's had before about using those magical feelings he's sometimes felt simmering under his skin, so to speak.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"> Re Sorcerous Origin: Draconic Bloodline. Because fire damage.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">PC Level 2: Warlock 1. Sorcery is nice but kind of squishy. There's got to be a more structured way to get to the power you want, and getting the vengeance you seek is worth whatever promises you have to make to this sulfury thing (if heading toward Blackguard) or leafy hipster (if you think you can make it to Paladin) that's willing to bargain.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">PC Levels 3 - 7: Blackguard or Paladin levels 1-to-5. You're on a mission, and pleased with the painful smitey things you can do now. 5 levels of this get you Extra Attack, with your first ASI coming through at character level 6.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">PC Levels 8 and up: 3 more levels of Blackguard/Paladin, with 10 levels to split between Sorcerer and Warlock as desired.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px">I'll be interested to see other ideas on this concept, and of course, to find out what you finally decide on.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #000000"></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Redthistle, post: 6961039, member: 6778305"] Caveat: I'm thinking "out loud" below, as I'm having to consider things you've already thought about, but hang in there. I've got answers for you at the end. 1. Regarding the race: Take a look at the Revenant subrace for possible ideas about your character's race. [URL]http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/gothic-heroes[/URL] is a free download. "Basically the concept of Aramil Soveliss is Pyromancer (Fire Specialized Wizard) and Champion Fighter. The simplicity of the Champion (I attack you with my sword) + Pyromancer (I hit you with A fire spell, as long as it does fire damage I don't care.)"[LEFT][COLOR=#000000] Mind you, the survey following the release of this Unearthed Arcana article showed little enthusiasm for the subrace: "Turning to the [URL="http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/gothic-heroes"]Gothic Heroes installment of Unearthed Arcana[/URL], the results showed that the revenant subrace had quite a bit of dissatisfaction. The concept seems fine, but I wonder if presenting a plot point as the basis for a race is a good idea.[SIZE=2]The concept of a revenant character might work better as a DM’s tool, rather than as a race a character might pick." [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Otoh, things about it might be a good fit for your concept. Since this is in the line of a mind-itch you've just got to scratch, I imagine you've also considered playing a tiefling, which gives you immediate access to Hellish Rebuke. Revenant is available as a tiefling subrace, per the UA article. Sadly, this subrace option as described in the article would prevent anyone from being able to use Hellish Rebuke with the revenant. [/SIZE][SIZE=2] 2. Regarding the multi-classes, and getting the most bang for the character levels, you mention Extra Attack. Remember, the Extra Attack feature is tied to class level, not to character level. Which class/archetype level are you pulling that from? It takes 5 class levels of Fighter to access that, which is as early as possible for any class (Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger also gain it at 5th). If you do include Fighter, I'd suggest taking 6 levels to also gain the 6th-level ASI, as you may be losing an ASI or two from other multi-class selections. So, 6 levels of Fighter wins out for Extra Attack, gaining 3 ASI bumps. 8 levels of Paladin would be the alternative, gaining Extra Attack but only 2 ASI in that range. [One other spot where Extra Attack can be gained: Bard's College of Valor at 6th level, but this class doesn't offer much else for this character concept.] 3. Fiery and blasty cantrips, delightful for their available-every-round usefulness, if not so much for their punctuated (as in not-every-level) damage increases (which are at least tied to PC-level, not class-level), are restricted somewhat by class. [Cantrips: Cleric - Flame Strike; Sorcerer and Wizard - Fire Bolt and Shocking Grasp; Warlock - Eldritch Blast]. The shared spell-casting ability of Charisma beats either Cleric (Wisdom) or Wizard (Intelligence), so the choice is between Sorcerer and Warlock. 4. Taking ASI potential into account again, however you split the levels between them, I'd do it in 4-level blocks to avoid losing any ASI opportunities. These take up 12 levels, then, which with 6 levels of Fighter leaves 2 levels available for Paladin (again, Charisma for spell-casting). So, the class/level options for Aramil Soveliss: Fighter 6 / Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Warlock 8 Fighter 6 / Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 8 / Warlock 4 Paladin 8 / Sorcerer 4 / Warlock 8 Paladin 8 / Sorcerer 8 / Warlock 4 5. The tough nut to crack is which class to chose at which character level. It's easy to see why you sought counsel for this question. Well, for reasons of flavor, imho, I'd take Sorcerer before Warlock, as the idea of a character beginning with some innate casting ability that generates into a hunger for more, leading to bargaining for those extra magics, just makes an intuitive sense. How to fit Paladin into that power evolution may be a story-line problem, since its possible to lose Paladin abilities if one becomes an oath-breaker. Not a problem if you are commanded by your deity to clean up some subset of the world's scum. If that's not the case, where is that Blackguard build, anyway? It might just fit the character concept better than a Paladin. [About that Blackguard thing ... RhaezDaevan had posted a potential Blackguard (variant Paladin) class (with 3 Archetypes: Shadow Master, Bone Lord, and Fiendish Champion) here on ENWorld: Read more: [URL]http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?367324-Blackguard#ixzz3FT5eR6G3[/URL] which may be useful to your considerations on this.] 6. So, using either the Blackguard or the Paladin (each preferable to Fighter because of the character concept), this is where my thoughts take me: PC Level 1: Sorcerer 1. Something in Aramil's life has wreaked a devastating injustice. It has jolted him out of whatever worldview he had before, and launched him on a new trajectory - he's becoming a Payload of Payback. This circumstance has also broken open whatever inhibitions he's had before about using those magical feelings he's sometimes felt simmering under his skin, so to speak. Re Sorcerous Origin: Draconic Bloodline. Because fire damage. PC Level 2: Warlock 1. Sorcery is nice but kind of squishy. There's got to be a more structured way to get to the power you want, and getting the vengeance you seek is worth whatever promises you have to make to this sulfury thing (if heading toward Blackguard) or leafy hipster (if you think you can make it to Paladin) that's willing to bargain. PC Levels 3 - 7: Blackguard or Paladin levels 1-to-5. You're on a mission, and pleased with the painful smitey things you can do now. 5 levels of this get you Extra Attack, with your first ASI coming through at character level 6. PC Levels 8 and up: 3 more levels of Blackguard/Paladin, with 10 levels to split between Sorcerer and Warlock as desired. I'll be interested to see other ideas on this concept, and of course, to find out what you finally decide on. [/SIZE] [/COLOR][/LEFT] [/QUOTE]
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