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Message: <blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 1802942" data-attributes="member: 5171">Er, no.A hero with Str18 and 0 ranks in climb makes his way up the cliff face by seizing the most obvious handhold and pulling his body up the cliff through sheer strength and athleticism.  The hero with Str10 and 4 ranks in Climb is conserving his strength and finding less-obvious cracks, doing little maneuevers with his balance to make things easier on himself, and other stuff he's learned over the years.I don't believe that people are saying that.  People are saying that, all other things being equal, a smart person will pick up more skills than an otherwise equivalent dumb person.  If the only difference between two people who are otherwise identical is that one of them is dumber than a bag of hammers and the other one is Mensa material, then yeah, the genius is going to be better at picking up new skills than his otherwise identical buddy, even though both of them have trained in exactly the same way over the years.You're comparing a whole lot of different variables at once and drawing conclusions I think are inaccurate.Let's try it one variable at a time:Strong Hero with 10 Int versus Strong Hero with 18 Int: The more intelligent strong hero picks up the techniques involved in climbing and jumping faster than his buddy.  They both have a Str of 18, so they both have the same natural athletic prowess.  The smarter guy has an additional edge on top of that, because he can examine his attempts more logically and say, "Hmm, maybe I shouldn't hug the wall so tightly, that kinda throws off my balance..."  The not-smart Strong Hero can do that, too, but he's staying up late thinking about that stuff, while the 18 Int Strong Hero picks it up quickly and then goes off to do his math homework.Strong Hero with 20 Int versus Smart Hero with 8 Int: The Strong hero is a bloody genius.  He studies hard, thinks logically about what he's doing, and improves with remarkable speed given the opportunity.  He's light-years ahead of an Int10 person with the same strength, because while they're both at the same point in terms of any one skill, the Strong hero's natural intelligence lets things come to him more easily.  It's not like he puts work into it.  It's just this thing he can do.The Smart Hero with the 8 Int, however, spends all day studying.  He's not actually all that bright, but he's learned from the master philosophers the proper way to improve his mind, and so he does his darndest to get things right and study properly.  When the Strong Hero with the 20 Int is just so darn fortunate that he picks up 8 skill points per level even while jumping rope, practicing sword forms, and wrestling with his buddies, the Smart Hero with the 8 Int is sweating and straining with all his mental might to figure this stuff out. He's not learning much else -- not learning how to attack people, not learning how to protect himself -- because he's really focused on learning as much new stuff as he can, even though he's not really good at learning new material and it doesn't come naturally to him.These two guys could, through background skills, be focusing on exactly the same skills, and they'd end up the same way.  Now, mind you, I think that Int8 is a pretty dumb choice for a Smart hero, but one level of Smart, if you want to make the sacrifice, is a good way to get a bunch of skill points.  Not being a big ol' dummy is another way to get a bunch of skill points.Yes.  Being stronger makes you a better climber.  I think that in your mind, you're comparing Strong heroes and Smart heroes, but you're actually just comparing Strength and Intelligence.  It's the classic mistake of comparing "This person has a high ability score" and "This person is a ____ Hero."  The question is ultimately open to interpretation, and there are many situations in which it could go either way, but you're tripping all over wherever that line actually rests.Maybe in your campaign, buddy, but not in mine.  The Strong Hero does not have to be strong.  He is someone who has devoted some training to making the most of the Strength he does have.A level of Strong Hero is a great way for a hero with a 10 Strength to do a bit more damage when he hits.  A level of Fast Hero is a good way for a hero with a 10 Dex to be a little bit harder to hit.  A level of Smart hero is a good way for a hero with a 10 Int to get a bunch of skills.A high ability score, generally speaking, might represent raw talent (although even raw talent changes as you go up in level).  Your class choices represent your chosen areas of training and focus.  !=I disagree.  Sure, you don't get iterative attacks if you have a BAB of +2 and an ability score modifier of +4, even though that totals +6, just like the guy with the BAB of +6 and the abiltiy score of 10.  But Extra Skill Points are not equivalent to additional attacks.  A better comparison would be:Just like you don't get an iterative attack if you have a BAB of +2 and an ability score modifier of +4, you can't use a "not untrained" skill even if the ability tied to that skill would give you a positive modifier.  Just like you can't get more than common knowledge on a Knowledge score unless you put ranks into it.  Just like you can't get the +2 Synergy bonus from a skill that also relates to this situation unless you have 5 RANKS, not just a +5 on the check.  Those are appropriate comparisons -- the question of an advantage being conferred not because of natural ability but because of training in the form of skill ranks being spent to get better at it.Example: Biff and Chet are both very athletic (Str16) and have 8 ranks in Climb.  Biff has an Int of 10, and Chet has an Int of 16.  As a result, Chet has more skill ranks available.  He used these skill ranks to get 8 ranks in Jump, while Biff, who has fewer skill points to spend, only got 4 ranks in Jump.While climbing a treacherous pass, Biff and Chet must handle a cliff section in which the GM rules that the Jump skill can provide a synergy bonus.  Biff has 8 ranks in Jump, and thus benefits from a +2 Synergy bonus from Jump on his Climb check.  Chet has a +7 on his Jump checks (4 ranks, +3 Strength), but he does not have 5 ranks in the skill.  As a result, he doesn't get the +2 Synergy bonus.  Chet has a lot of raw ability in terms of jumping, but he doesn't have anywhere near the training that Biff has, or, even if he does have the same amount of training, he hasn't internalized it the way that Biff has.  He doesn't think of leaping across the chasm to grab a handhold as being anything like the high-jumps he occasionally practiced.Biff, however, uses some of the same principles, because he trained in Jump enough to benefit. The heroes both have athletic skill in the form of Strength.  They both have ranks in Climb.  The only difference between the two is that one put more ranks into Jump than the other one, and the only reason one has that advantage is because he is smarter and picks up most kinds of training faster than his friend.If you don't want Intelligence to give more skill points, then feel free to change it, of course.  But I don't intend to follow you.  You're changing what Intelligence means to the game, and not, I believe, for the better.</blockquote>

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