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Message: <blockquote data-quote="HeapThaumaturgist" data-source="post: 1803966" data-attributes="member: 12332">I wanted to chime in on this one.D20 Modern very specifically moved AWAY from strong "Archetypes" with the class system designed for this game, and I believe that's a very distinct design choice that Wulf took and ran with in Grim Tales.  Wulf can chime in and tell me if I'm missing the mark or not, but he's trying really hard to stay out of the argument.Think of them more as archetypal "Packages".  They're point-buy-made-simple.  They're an element introduced to provide GAME BALANCE while introducing an additional element of flexibility.  In D&D the Rogue is an Archetype.  The Paladin is an Archetype.  The Fighter?  An archetype, but a flexible one (owing to the plethora of choose-what-you-want feats).  The classes in d20 Modern were designed from the floor up to be freely multiclassable.By packages I mean ... you examine what you get from taking 1+ levels in Class A and compare it to your Character Concept.  Strong gives me higher BAB but fewer Skill Points.  This isn't because it is a Jungian archetypal unit that should shape and form Concept, but because for internal design reasons you're "purchasing" higher BAB and Strong talents and a skill list foregrounding Str-based skills this level.  CONCEPT shapes and forms what classes you take  to realize it.This is the thing I'm not seeing you articulate or address in your arguments.  You seem to be basing what is fundamentally a BALANCE element on the particular story you're telling with the rules.  "Smarts" and "Intellect" and "Working Dilligently" mean absolutely nothing.  Those are story elements.  Stripped away we're left with the RULES.  High Int can grant you all kinds of accelerated BAB.  Taking Strong levels.  Because it doesn't matter.  Strength was permanently linked to non-Base attack bonus and damage bonus.  For game balance reasons.  Int was permanently linked to Skill Points.  For game balance reasons.  You can have low Str and take Strong for Melee Smash and BAB and call it "applied intellect" or "exploring the aptitude of intelligence" all day long, or even "striking true through Wisdom" or "finding his inner Charismatic warrior".  Means nothing.  In the end, for balance reasons, you take Strong to get ____ and ____ numeric game changes and you take Smart to get _____ and _____ numeric game changes to your character.  Int applies to Skill Points every level for no other reason than the designers (and most players, it seems) feel that it attributes to game balance.  However it gets explained, it doesn't matter.The Smart hero with high Str gets Str-based Attack/Damage Bonuses every strike, something that somebody who took Strong levels paid a whole level for.  The Strong hero with high Wis gets bonuses to investigative skills that somebody with Dedicated paid a level to add ranks to.  Along with a higher Will save that somebody took Dedicated to get.  I think you're just looking way too hard at one small aspect of the game system and, as I said, breaking it to "fix" it.I dunno.  I'm still enjoying myself.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Course I enjoy a good argument, so it may just be me.--fje</blockquote>

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