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Message: <blockquote data-quote="sinmissing" data-source="post: 1804117" data-attributes="member: 1960">I guess, as you had previously stated, I may have taken too much and in turn attributed too little to the 6 classes.  I do indeed view these 6 classes as Archetypes, because I don't quite understand yet how a prepackaged group of choices; however flexible; does not equate to what an Archetype is.  In fact, I'm sure that you're confining the term archetype to purposely exclude the 6 core classes.Here's an example that has nothing to do with my personal experience, but is simply a factual (excepted terminology) criticism of the horror genre.There is an adversary in horror called "The Shape" which is a mysterious, unknowable, unstoppable killing machine.  I'm sure I just butchered the defining elements of the archetype, pardon the pun.  Within the archetype we have Michael Myers and Jason.  Jason is a spirit of retribution, the angry ghost of a kid seeking vengeance against horny teenagers who shirk their duties.  Michael Myers is a mentally deranged individual seeking to kill his sister.  They are part of the same archetype, but one is undead and the other is not.  In d20 Mechanics, Jason and Michael are Strong/Tough "Heroes" but are quite different when you look at their selection of talents, feats, and raw attributes.Grim Tales is suppose to allow you to emulate your favorite pulp settings, it accomplishes this, in a very wise way, by using nothing more than the 6 core classes which are for better or worse archetypes of the word which describes them (how else were the class features defined the way they were?)*.  A defining element of pulp, I imagine, requires that we view everyone as an archetype.  We can therefore describe any hero we read about as one or more combinations of the six classes, which is to say, we (at least I) are/am cataloguing <sp> their archetypes.So I see a characters as a set of raw talents (Attributes) and an archetype (Class).  Together they define the character.  Raw talents provide an initial bonus to several character attributes, but it is ultimately the character's archetype(s) which primarily defines their BAB, Saves, Skill Points, and Talent Selection.Mechanics wise, I see the overall application of Skill Point acquisition, the INT boni, the way SP get spent, cross-class costs, rank caps, and multi-class penalties to be a convoluted attempt to enforce the archetypes that D&D wishes to describe.  This is completely reasonable; for D&D; but in Grim Tales you shouldn't need to do all this.I have modified my initial idea about skill points, thanks you two.  I'm considering giving a 1st level character the initial x4 INT bonus to reflect their prior hobbies and pursuits, but you only get more INT bonus skill points by purchasing the feat Highly Skilled which provides 4 + INT Bonus (minimum 4).  In this way, a high Intelligence is given its due within the game mechanics, but the the game enforces the idea that you have to make active choices to get these skill points, which builds on archetype yet allows them to remain distinct and flexible.I'm enjoying myself as well.drnuncheon comment is, in my opinion, the logical conclusion of the argument that high INT gives me free skill points.  Which is my argument said in half the time.  When does it ever stop?  I say highlight Archetypes, limit freebies, and encourage choice and character design.*Granted the classes are designed to be balanced, so everyone needs a bone, so I'm being a little rhetorical here.  Not balanced for every possible situation, I know, but balanced in that each has strengths, weaknesses, and benefits.</blockquote>

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