Hey! You got a quibble in my prophecy!

[Cor Azer]

In my opinion, one of the best story elements of fantasy epics are the prophecies, omens, and tales foreshadowing what lays before the heroes (or villains). Of course, for those of us on this board, we tend to play a game rather than simply write one, and as a general rule, even the best of us cannot see exactly how the players will (or even if) reach the end of the "epic" plots revolving around them.

How then, do you approach prophecies in your games? Do you use them? Do you keep them vague ("Evil will rise f good does nothing")? Do you craft some nice twists? Do you let players discover their own quibbles in your prophecy, or do you deliberately place a quibble or two in there and leave hints for the players to find them (or just cross your fingers and see if they discover your prophecy's wordplay).

I'm planning out a new campaign during which I'm hoping to use a bunch of prophecies and seemingly impossible challenges; I'm hoping the players will discover the quibbles I envision, or even better, find their own. I'd also be curious about similar prophecies others have used in their games. Now, several of mine are being adapted from (well-?) known prophecies and quibbles from mythology, which I'm hoping might catch a faint memory in a player's thoughts as an additional hint.

The big bad is a warforged tyrant, who was prophecised to be invincible until his gnome artificer underling was given a clock he could not fix. Of course, the tyrant has put all sorts of resources into making sure the artificer can fix such things, 'cause he doesn't want to die himself. One such quibble the players can find: bring the artificer a perfectly functioning clock - it isn't broke, so it can't be fixed.

Another of the tyrant's underlings cannot be harmed by "any who stand before him". Here, the trick is to attack him from behind, or from a kneeling/prone/sitting position.

I'd like to use the LotR Witch-King's "will not be killed by a Man", but the players in my group actually rarely tend to play humans, so unless I make them the only non-humans in the kingdom, odds are likely that some sort of non-Man (be it a non-human or a female human) will have faced him in battle.

Obviously, the trick is to keep the quibble obscure enough that it wouldn't have happened before, but obvious enough that I don't need to use some Jedi "Certain Point of View" logic to show that yes, that gets around his prophetic defenses.

 

[MarkB]

I'm not sure I'd be so keen on this "find-the-legal-loophole-to-reveal-the-enemy's-kryptonite" approach to prophecies. Generally, this isn't how it works in fiction or myth.

Such prophecies tend to simply be an account of the unusual circumstances which happen to occur on the day the prophecy finally does come true, not a puzzle-box to be unlocked in order to strip away the notional protection of Fate from a victim. Trying to recreate such circumstances deliberately as a way of "tricking" Fate seems like it'd be just asking for trouble.

And what happens if your players decide they don't believe in fate, and go straight for the villain without ever coming near his clock-maker? Does he become arbitrarily invulnerable for the duration of that combat?

Prophecies can be a good way of letting the players know if they're on-track, or of presenting them with a "what-if" scenario showing them what will happen if they don't succeed, but introducing an inevitable prophecy can make things very difficult, given players' ability to sometimes take campaigns off on a tangent.

 

[the Jester]

I like prophecies and try to use them once in a while, but keeping them vague and abstract (like RW prophecies tend to be ) so that they can be interpreted after the fact.

That said...

I'd like to use the LotR Witch-King's "will not be killed by a Man"

...I strongly recommend against this approach- you would basically be telling some pcs that because of their character generation choices, they get screwed.

 

[Fifth Element]

I don't use them at all in my games. To use them (without interfering too much with the players), they'd have to be so vague as to be meaningless. The reason they work in literature is because a single person is in control of where the story goes. That doesn't work so well in RPGs.

 

[Cor Azer]

...I strongly recommend against this approach- you would basically be telling some pcs that because of their character generation choices, they get screwed.

Oh, I agree for that specific one. I guess I should have said I'd like to use something like it, as opposed to it exactly, because yes, I wouldn't want to be effectively telling one or more players "You choose poorly before you even knew there was a consequence to your choice".

 

[steeldragons]

It really depends on the situation the verse is describing.

In the case of some epic prophecy, then chances are they would not include any detailed info as to "how to get around it" more of a "this is what shall pass"...and, generally are simply used to guide the party to more/additional info/detail for the situation.

How the prophecy actually ends, if at all possible, I do try to leave somewhat open...I mean, I'd have a possible outcome in mind, certainly...but if the players' actions can or do somehow effect the events, then I am inclined to work some of what they do in to let them have their glory/potentially "beat" the prophecy...or defeat it in some way I had not considered (I'm a big proponent of getting your players to think outside the box and rarely discourage their efforts -so long as it doesn't overly disrupt internal world consistency- to do so).

In the case of "omens" or random "fortune telling" then yes, the "no mortal man may hinder me" rules generally apply. I like those sorts of things sprinkled about...basically "figure out the double meaning and win a prize".

But, generally speaking, both "prophecy" and run of the mill "fortune telling" very rarely used as grand plot elements in my campaign.

--SD

 

[Cor Azer]

I'm not sure I'd be so keen on this "find-the-legal-loophole-to-reveal-the-enemy's-kryptonite" approach to prophecies. Generally, this isn't how it works in fiction or myth.

To be fair though, is that really any different from "find-the-mcguffin-that-can-harm-the-big-bad"? Which, in my experience, is frequently, if not pervasively, present in fiction and myth.

And what happens if your players decide they don't believe in fate, and go straight for the villain without ever coming near his clock-maker? Does he become arbitrarily invulnerable for the duration of that combat?

To be blunt, possibly yes. My players have learned over the years that I don't always tailor encounters to their current abilities, and thus, they've also learned that sometimes it's better to flee and regroup (perhaps by finding a mcguffin/loophole) to help them next time. I know it doesn't work for every group, but it does work for some.

Prophecies can be a good way of letting the players know if they're on-track, or of presenting them with a "what-if" scenario showing them what will happen if they don't succeed, but introducing an inevitable prophecy can make things very difficult, given players' ability to sometimes take campaigns off on a tangent.

Huh... see, I don't see the prophecies I threw out in my original post as "inevitable". In fact, most of them I cribbed from stories of people getting out of deals with the devil, which are not uncommon in fiction and myth.

 

[the Jester]

One more general remark on prophecies from me: I think it's a good idea to avoid prophecies that single out a specific pc for anything, since pcs are notoriously uncooperative.

The best results I have had are those that entice the pcs into pursuing them.

 

[MarkB]

One more general remark on prophecies from me: I think it's a good idea to avoid prophecies that single out a specific pc for anything, since pcs are notoriously uncooperative.

I'll second that. Co-operativeness aside, there's the question of what happens if that PC dies before ever reaching the prophecised event. It can be awfully embarrassing having the wise old soothsayer hand the paladin the Sword of McGuffinness and declare "You are the one foretold, who will wield this against the Dark Lord!", only for him to get skewered by an orc five minutes later.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Originally Posted by Cor Azer
I'd like to use the LotR Witch-King's "will not be killed by a Man"

Re: the Witch-King

Something that vague still has plenty of wiggle room, especially in a FRPG. It could mean death via woman, death via non-Human, death via an accident (falls off cliff), death via carelessness (his own magic misfires or is bounced back at him, the PCs convince his minions to redeem themselves and turn on him, a summoned creature kills him, there is divine intervention prayed for by a cleric...

It doesn't screw the PCs unless you, the DM, have ONLY ONE meaning to the prophecy. Believe me, creative players will think of SOMETHING that satisfies the prophesy...you just have to decide it's good enough.