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Message: <blockquote data-quote="M.L. Martin" data-source="post: 4819666" data-attributes="member: 4086">Some more thoughts now that I have more time . . . D&D is fundamentally a hodgepodge, yes; Old Geezer over on RPG.net (one of Those Who Were There At The Beginning) has said repeatedly that "we made up some [stuff] that we thought would be cool." The cleric, for example, came out of the desire to create a counter to another player's dominating vampire PC, and the Tolkienian races made it into the game because the players pestered Gygax for them. For all that hodgepodge, though, I do get the impression that the sword & sorcery elements were Gygax's primary information, and thus form the 'baseline' of the game, influencing more than they were influenced. However, that hodgepodge and the growth of the game also added new genre elements.I'm going to refer to another game here for some genre definitions. My copy of Fantasy Hero, Fifth Edition defines the following as tropes of the Sword & Sorcery genre:  [ <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Barbarism is the Natural State of Mankind"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magic, Slow and Difficult</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lack of Heroism (heroism based on survival and ability, not attitude or conduct)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Only the Tough Survive</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Short-Term Thinking</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Show Me The Money</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Perspective is: Neutral ("Heroes survive through toughness, skill and wits, not because the world tilts in their favor.")</li> </ul>  The first doesn't show up so much in D&D, and the second and fourth are arguable, but the other elements seem to match very well with 'old school' D&D. Now, for comparison's sake, here's the lists for Epic Fantasy and High Fantasy from the same volume.Epic Fantasy contains:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Free Will and Fate</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Heroic Qualities and Preserving the Good</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">High Stakes and Powerful Enemies</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Naive Hero</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Natural World</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A Richly-Developed, Well-Ordered World</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Starkly-Drawn Characters</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A Tragic Note</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Wise and Powerful Wizards</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Perspective is: Subtly Beneficient. "Through nobility, valor, heroic determination, and heroic sacrifice, [heroes] can triumph--the 'rules' of the world set things up so that, if sufficiently motivated, they can win despite the odds against them."</li> </ul>High Fantasy, by contrast, includes: <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Dungeons</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Gods Walk The Earth</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsters and Fantastic Creatures</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Planar Travel</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A Plethora of Races</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Perspective Is: Neutral, though slightly titled towards the heroes</li> </ul>  Now, FH says that 'High Fantasy' is largely defined by D&D, and the list of elements bears that out. so it would appear that D&D can't be S&S, right?  Using these definitions as a starting point, it is entirely possible for a game to contain strong elements of both High Fantasy and Swords & Sorcery--or, by contrast, High Fantasy and Epic Fantasy. The elements of High Fantasy are largely setting elements, while Swords & Sorcery and Epic Fantasy are defined more by thematic and characterization elements. Therefore, High Fantasy can overlap with either genre. I would submit that D&D, at least as envisioned by the 'old school', is High Fantasy built on a Swords & Sorcery base.  But what about those who use the game for something that would be more 'pure' High Fantasy, or a High/Epic Fantasy cross? That, I think, can be explained by the looseness and evolution of the game.  As mentioned, D&D started out as a hodgepodge--one that I submit had a Swords & Sorcery baseline, but added in a lot of other elements, some of which (paladins in particular come to mind) are more High or Epic Fantasy. In addition, the game up through 1E at least was written for an audience that was assumed to be familiar with fantasy, so Gygax didn't spend much time trying to write in Sword & Sorcery play--it seems to have been more assumed than enforced. As the audience shifted, the game shifted with it. I have to wonder how much of the more story-oriented, hero-oriented elements of late 1E and 2E arise from a generation of gamers who grew up on Star Wars, which is very much Epic Fantasy with space opera trappings.</blockquote>

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