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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zulgyan" data-source="post: 4820208" data-attributes="member: 18785">Good stuff, thanks guys for the responses:A few notes:1) I think some are missing the point that, what defines HF vs. S&S is the underlying worldview and moral system - basically: God on the side of good vs. No God, or God takes no sides. 2) The presence of demi-humans, clerics, vancian magic or not, etc. are all secondary to that, IMO. So sword & sorcery is not necessarily about barbarians vs. evil sorcerers. That's how it is in many popular S&S novels, but it does not need to be necessarily that way. You need to look at the higher concepts and themes of the novels. 3) I agree that D&D and westerns have much in common. Specially the spaghetti-westerns of Sergio Leone: "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly", "Fistful of Dollars" and "For a few dollars more". I heartily recommend those films, and their plots are very very D&Desque4) Yes, RPGs are bigger than Gygax, agreed. But when you analyse the RPG he authored, he is a main reference for interpretation, ins't he?. What John Wick says about Houses of the Blooded will be more relevant that what Ron Edwards says about that game.5) I think that OD&D and 1E as games that captured very close the spirit of S&S, was not that intentional on part of Gygax. Not very consciously, IMO, he captured the spirit of S&S because in his game, the fact you where good or the protagonist, made you in no way special.6) When authors write their novels, they don't justify the survival of their protagonists solely on them being them protagonists. They introduce an additional justification, to create an illusion that they survive because of other reasons than just being the protagonist. On general terms, in HF novels it's because higher forces of good will never let evil triumph. In S&S it's because the protagonist is skillful, lucky and resourceful, not because he receives aid from above. Saying that the only survive because they are the protagonist is a very poor reading of the novels. You have to look at the illusionary reason the author uses to justify their success. That illusion tells you a lot about the imaginary world of the author. 7) 4E is not a pure HF game. To be a pure HF game, you need a mechanic that makes good always win over evil. 4E does not have it, for good IMO. But 4E has introduced some "plot control" mechanics that make the HF premise easier to achieve, the premise being "good will win over evil". This are:1) Automatically Balanced encounters: the game is telling you when and what should be encountered. That's plot control right there. 2) Treasure prescriptions: the game is telling when should a magic sword be gained. That's also plot control the way I see it. 3) Less randomness, more predictability, that will reduce "bad surprises" that can frustrate the fulfillment of the HF premise: good will win over evil.</blockquote>

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