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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nail" data-source="post: 1575760" data-attributes="member: 224">Thanks for discussing this, folks!  It's helpful!As you might expect, I agree with what DrSpunj has posted, so I won't repeat (much) of that, but I'll pull out a few:#1) This change (combining Hide and Mv. Sil into Sneak) allows the rogue to become a master at both social and physical skills.What?!  I'm at a loss to explain how this could be true.  Perhaps someone subtracted a whole bunch of cool skills from the rogues list when I wasn't looking?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />There are many, many skills that are useful for a rogue.  It is simply not possible for one rogue to be master of them all, even with a combined Sneak skill.  Try putting a few thief archetypes together, and you'll see what I mean.  The sky is not falling, ladies and gentlemen.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />#2) This change sets a "clunky" precident.A strange arguement, given this is a house-rules forum, where we change rules.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Subtracting a few skills is no different, mechanically, than adding a few skills.  It certainly does not mean "reduce the skill list to an absurdly small number", and that's not been suggested. #3) There's no problem in the RAW you're fixing.The problem(s) are simple, and laid out in the first message in this thread.  They're all valid, and problematic enough to think about.  For me, as a DM, my primary motivator from that list were the "Rogue Auto Detect" abilities that are rampant at higher level play.  Although Wulf's storyhour is a good example, there are others  (in other story hours; Read 'em!)....in fact, examples abound throughout the "Adventure Path" series by WotC itself.Some have said such creatures are not common.  Surely "Animals" are common, eh?  All animals automatically detect rogues within 30 feet.  Automatically.  It's called Scent, and a rogue (given RAW) CANNOT pass even a lowly camel undetected.  That's right: a Camel is a fool-proof high-level rogue detector.   (Watch out, they spit!)  Tremorsense, Blindsense, and Blindsight are frequent enough (but not "common", I'll grant), that the Hide skill is pretty much a useless ability above mid-levels. #4) Spot and Sense should be combined as well.In this, YMMV, I admit.   (Tip of th' hat to Nifft.) I think that the "Sense" mechanic (pin-point location, but not negate concealment or cover) is different enough from Spot (pin-point location, can see and react to subject's actions) to be a separate skill.After all, you can know where a subject is, but not see him...and that still puts you at a disadvantage, tactically.  The visual sense is important enough to "call out" into a separate skill.Keep in mind that in our description of these tweaked skills, you either roll a Spot or a Sense check when someone is Sneaking up on you, not both.</blockquote>

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